Marie Antoinette Online
  • FORUM
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:49 pm



Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac? 
Author Message
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1981
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Everyone is a bit greedy to a certain extent.

_________________
"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown."-William Shakespeare


Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:59 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:50 pm
Posts: 1681
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Pimprenelle wrote:
Then, it is true that some of the Polignac family and friends used Madame de Polignac to obtain favours, and that she could not help but ask for them... and that Marie Antoinette could not help but accept.


State finances were awful in France during the reign of Louis XVI not only because inherited debs and expensive wars but also because the luxury and big expenses of the court. I know that from the state register had been given 400.000 livara (I don’t know to translate) to repay the debts of Duchesse de Polignac and 800.000 livara as dowery to her daughter.
I think that Duchesse de Polignac took advantage of her position as people around the royal family always wanted to.

_________________
If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. St. Francis of Assisi


Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:13 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Quote:
sadly i think she was a bit greedy, but only for her familys sake

No, dear, she was not, not at all. But her family and friends used her to obtain favours, alas. She was desparate about it.

When Marie Antoinette had to choose a new governess, these friends insisted on proposing Madame de Polignac. She was extremely angry about it. Then, she had to accept, for them but most of all for Marie Antoinette.

Eventually, she did her job quite well, for she loved Marie Antoinette's children, who often play with hers. Marie Antoinette even considered Madame de Polignac's children as hers by adoption. "N'est-elle pas ma fille d'adoption ?", she wrote about Guichette.

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Quote:
State finances were awful in France during the reign of Louis XVI not only because inherited debs and expensive wars but also because the luxury and big expenses of the court. I know that from the state register had been given 400.000 livara (I don’t know to translate) to repay the debts of Duchesse de Polignac and 800.000 livara as dowery to her daughter.
I think that Duchesse de Polignac took advantage of her position as people around the royal family always wanted to.

I am afraid this analyse is a little bit too simplistic.

First of all, historians are not in agreement about the state of France during Louis XVI's reign. Some (rather republicans) say that it was awful and that a revolution was necessary. Others consider that life was happy and easy then. I am in agreement with these last ones.

But it is certain that the American war caused a terrible damage to the French treasure, far more important than all those court expenses, that did not represent that much.

Then, there were those terrible recolts and winters, that empoverished the people... helped, of course, by those who speculated and wanted the price of bread to explose.

And, of course, structural reforms were necessary. Louis XVI tried, with Turgot, first, then with Calonne. But neither the clergy nor the nobility followed him. That's why he finally had to call the general estates, that was another failure and led to this awful revolution.

This could all have been avoided, all this bloodshed, if only the clergy and the nobility had been less selfish...

Back to Madame de Polignac and her family, I also find you analyse too simplistic. Marie Antoinette actually never asked for her friend. The king gave to her. That is why some historians now consider that Louis XVI used Madame de Polignac as some kind of governess to have his wife out of politics. Interesting standpoint, isn't it ?

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:26 pm
Profile
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1981
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
It seems to me that Louis tried to change France structurally, even though he wouldn't change the rest of the nobility and clergy would not change. Not to mention financally, correct me if I'm wrong even during Louis XIV's there was a massive debt. I believe the finances were already delicate and it is helping the American revolution is what really shattered the state finances.

_________________
"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown."-William Shakespeare


Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:35 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:50 pm
Posts: 1681
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Pimprenelle wrote:
if only the clergy and the nobility had been less selfish...

I think that most of the court (if not the whole) couldn’t bear the changes because their vanity and fear of loosing luxurious life.
I don’t know about Madam de Polignac attitude towards this since she gained a lot in the same regime. :roll:

Pimprenelle wrote:
I am afraid this analyse is a little bit too simplistic.


I look at the facts, that was a large amount of money who ever gave it to her (king or queen). Expenses that kind certainly didn’t make the financial situation better. What I know for fact is that France was in debt during the reign of Louis XV but during the 15 years of Louis XVI reign that debt became much greater. It is complex situation but simple in the same time. It shows many flaws of the ancient regime and how changes were indeed necessary. Lot of intelligence was necessary from the both sides to make a compromise and avoid the disaster.

I know that Louis XIV was smart enough to find the right associates who helped him in a field of finances (Colber).

_________________
If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. St. Francis of Assisi


Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:15 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Quote:
Lot of intelligence was necessary from the both sides to make a compromise and avoid the disaster.

These structural changes that was necessary neede more than intelligence. All those men were intelligent, Louis XVI, Turgot, Calonne, Brienne, Necker... they all failed. And this revolution failed too, for it most of all led to a terrible war. I am afraid it is an extremely complicated situation.

Quote:
I don’t know about Madam de Polignac attitude towards this since she gained a lot in the same regime.

What did she gain ? Heavy charges, detestations, exil and illness.

Money, you mean ? Madame de Polignac was not interested in money. She enjoyed simple places and things, she never wore diamonds nor jewels.

These are facts too. They are reported by serious eyes witnesses.

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:03 am
Profile
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1981
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
I think Polignac was thrust into an incredibly dangerous or vicarious position. Considering the state France was in she was incredibly vunerable. I concur with Pimpernelle, there was so much intelligence on both sides. The court was too stubborn or they resisted change, everyone else but these men were resistant to change. And creating change, or enforcing change is difficult when the rest of the country is resistant or hostile to the idea of change.

_________________
"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown."-William Shakespeare


Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:00 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:50 pm
Posts: 1681
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Pimprenelle, can we ever agree in anything? :biggrin:

Pimprenelle wrote:
These structural changes that was necessary neede more than intelligence. All those men were intelligent, Louis XVI, Turgot, Calonne, Brienne, Necker... they all failed. And this revolution failed too, for it most of all led to a terrible war. I am afraid it is an extremely complicated situation.

I mean intelligence of the first estate who should had seen earlier the seriousness of the situation and accept some changes in order to try to avoid the violent revolution. For example, we had one smart man Tirgo who nobody wanted to listen and one smart but bad man Robespierre who at one time had support of the majority to do what he wanted :roll: . Situation was complicated but it can’t approve all the things that had lead to revolution and the revolution (reign of terror) itself.

Pimprenelle wrote:
What did she gain ? Heavy charges, detestations, exil and illness.

Money, you mean ? Madame de Polignac was not interested in money. She enjoyed simple places and things, she never wore diamonds nor jewels.


I think that madam de Polignac, before the revolution, had lived comfortable and wealthy life beside the queen, like many court aristocrats and she didn’t need the change in country because she didn’t feel the negative consequents of the regime directly. I admit that I was never particularly interested in her so I don’t know much. I know for the money that she got to pay her expenses from the state budget and some descriptions of her from the media - that she was one witty, shallow person that had a lot of fun with the young Marie Antoinette. Her tragic death made me to see the true devotion of her but still I haven’t heard something to deny all those other statements.
I certainly don’t think that she had deserved the things you mentioned but they were the negative side effects of the revolution, as the revolution was a consequence of the regime and the condition in the state that was unsatisfactory for the grand majority of citizens.

Pimprenelle wrote:
First of all, historians are not in agreement about the state of France during Louis XVI's reign. Some (rather republicans) say that it was awful and that a revolution was necessary. Others consider that life was happy and easy then. I am in agreement with these last ones.

I have never heard this theory in which you believe before. Can you, please, explain it to me?

_________________
If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. St. Francis of Assisi


Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:47 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:00 pm
Posts: 2161
Location: France
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Pim, so glad to see you back :D
would it be a safe assumption to compare the rise of the Polignac family, to that of the Boleyn family of England?


Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:59 pm
Profile WWW
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:14 am
Posts: 808
Location: Le Petit Trianon, France
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Comte de Provence wrote:
Pim, so glad to see you back :D
would it be a safe assumption to compare the rise of the Polignac family, to that of the Boleyn family of England?

how? oh, i see, interesting id never think of it like that.....

_________________
“There is nothing new except what has been forgotten.”- Marie Antoinette


Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:46 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
As suggested, discussions about "Troy" have been moved here :
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1219

Please be so kind as to keep this topic reserved for Madame de Polignac.

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:55 pm
Profile
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1981
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Sorry Pimpernelle. :(

_________________
"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown."-William Shakespeare


Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:48 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:00 pm
Posts: 2161
Location: France
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Pimprenelle wrote:
As suggested, discussions about "Troy" have been moved here :
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1219

Please be so kind as to keep this topic reserved for Madame de Polignac.

didnt mean for it to be carried off subject like that!

but back to what i was saying, The Bloeyn family had placed both its daughters lives on the line just to get some respect at court, and got marvelous apartments there as well, if i remember correctly, the polignac sect as they were called were given lavish apartments as well.
and were not very well liked by much of court...


Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:30 pm
Profile WWW
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: What accually killed Duchesse de Polignac?
Thanks for your kind attention, Hellou Librorum ! There's no harm, off topics may happen. :wink:

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:59 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 48 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.