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 What actually happened to the young Dauphin? 
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Duc/Duchesse
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
Dear ShaktiValkyrie,

Yes, it does seem particularly savage, even by revolutionary standards. :) As one of my teacher/mentors said many years ago, "The French Revolution is a lesson in how NOT to have a revolution..."
P.S. I love the quotation you have chosen to represent yourself. It is a beautiful thought. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/was Hada Bejar? An Indian writer or philosopher?

Sincerely,
Ray

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Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:23 am
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
Thank you very much!! To be honest the only things I have ever been able to find out is that she is an Spanish actress and playwright. She did about 3 movies in the 1960s.
As soon as I read the quote, it went right to my heart and I connected with it.
So no worries, I'm just as much in that dark as you. :)

Quote:
"The French Revolution is a lesson in how NOT to have a revolution..."

This person hit it right on the head!!

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Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:33 pm
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
He was handsome.......


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File comment: found this print on ebay
YOUNGDAUPHIN.jpg
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“There is nothing new except what has been forgotten.”- Marie Antoinette
Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:08 am
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
Thank you Versailles for the large and lovely picture of the dauphin. I wonder if it has been added to the Galleries... In any case, you are to be commended for your important contributions.

Thanks again,
Ray

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"...little did I dream that I should have lived to see such disasters fallen upon her...I thought ten thousand swords must have leaped from their scabbards to avenge even a look that threatened her with insult."
Edmund Burke, (1790)


Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:49 am
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
Welcome

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“There is nothing new except what has been forgotten.”- Marie Antoinette


Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:31 pm
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
A book entitled "The Lost King of France" by Deborah Cadbury is fascinating. She goes into detail on DNA analysis that has been conducted on hair samples retrieved from rosary beads that belonged to Marie Antoinette's mother. The beads contained 16 tiny lockets which contained hair samples of her 16 children. The rosary beads came from a convent in Austria where one of her daughters resided until her death. Scientists have used pieces of these locks to determine if some earlier "claims" of being the Dauphin were true or false.


Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:08 pm
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
I also read that they brought in prostitutes to rape the little boy so that he would be convinced that his mother and aunt Elizabeth had been there and raped him. On the wall of his cell he scratched something like "mommy..I beg you.." this also comes from the 2008 Susan Nagel book. Marie Therese in her memoirs said that surely her mother could hear the boy being tortured from where she was being held and they could hear him crying and being beaten for crying by the guards. I have an 8 year old son and don't want to imagine such a horrific thing. When I read this part of Child of Terror I acualy questioned my faith in God. How could any human created by a loving God ever be so cruel to a child under any circumstances? MA was probably glad to die.


Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:22 am
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
Revolutions have a tendency to bring out the worst elements of society (the dregs) and place them in positions of power. We can see this in the French and Russian Revolutions, in the Nazi takeover of Germany; and watch it unfold in present day Africa. However dysfunctional the old regime may be, the cure (revolution) is often worse than the illness.

As for the poor little Dauphin, perhaps there is a tiny bit of comfort in knowing that he probably would not have lived to adulthood even if he'd remained in the best of care. There were signs that he had the same genetic disorder that killed his elder brother.

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Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:35 pm
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
Christophe wrote:
s for the poor little Dauphin, perhaps there is a tiny bit of comfort in knowing that he probably would not have lived to adulthood even if he'd remained in the best of care. There were signs that he had the same genetic disorder that killed his elder brother.


That's very interesting Christophe, I didn't know that. I take it Marie Therese Charlotte didn't suffer from this - is it something that affected males only?

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Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:43 pm
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
Christophe wrote:
Revolutions have a tendency to bring out the worst elements of society (the dregs) and place them in positions of power. We can see this in the French and Russian Revolutions, in the Nazi takeover of Germany; and watch it unfold in present day Africa. However dysfunctional the old regime may be, the cure (revolution) is often worse than the illness.


You put that perfectly! When I hear some people say that things just keep getting worse and worse as time goes on, I can't help but want to challenge that with the media. I don't think it's any worse than it ever was, it's just that at this point in time we have an amazing access to tools that can give us any information from just about anywhere at any time. The normal response I get it about the cruelty today. That's actually when I bring 2 very different uprisings.First is (a woman I personally love) Boudica and her revolt in the year 60 with a major part of that being her defeat of Camolodunum(modern day Colchester). The brutality that occurred is horrible. The second is the French Revolution about 1730 years later. which we know was horribly savage. While the mail system had gotten better in those years, it was still a slow turn around. Today though, all you need is the internet and in a few seconds and you can see a world of news. Good and Bad.

Just a couple of months ago I asked why the French Revolution was so savage compared to others. I have now come to think maybe it wasn't. I decided to research many other wars and revolts, they were all just as bad and hideous as the others, only in different ways.
Like I said, Christophe really said it perfectly!!

To AxelRocksMyWorld
Quote:
When I read this part of Child of Terror I acualy questioned my faith in God


I am sorry to hear that it has hurt your soul so much to hear about what he went through! I generally don't discuss God or Goddesses or politics on boards, but I wanted to address this and I started to, but because I am "talking" just to you, I thinks it's more appropriate for me to PM you. I will do that I a moment.

Quote:
As for the poor little Dauphin, perhaps there is a tiny bit of comfort in knowing that he probably would not have lived to adulthood even if he'd remained in the best of care. There were signs that he had the same genetic disorder that killed his elder brother.


I didn't realize that. in a way, for me anyhow, it does help a little knowing that. His death wasn't in vain either. It is hard to read what happened to him, at the same time it also gives us more information on the extreme mindset these people were in. Also, I don't think many souls still get prayers of love sent to them some 200 plus years later. :)

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Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:55 pm
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
I must correct myself, I fear. Louis-Joseph, the 1st Dauphin, died of tuberculosis in 1789. I remember reading in Cronin's Louis & Antoinette, that his body grew horribly twisted as the disease attacked his muscles and spine. For some reason, it set in my mind that this was a genetic disorder, when in fact it was only the final stages of tuberculosis.
Louis-Charles, the "lost" Dauphin also died of tuberculosis, with reportedly similar symptoms---either he caught it from his brother years before (in which case he was doomed anyway), or he contracted it while in prison. Both scenarios are likely, so it's impossible to say which is the case.

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"One grows accustomed to one's enemy, and by making it familiar one loses the desire to get rid of it...." Marquise de la Tour du Pin, in a letter to her friend Mme. de Duras.


Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:53 pm
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
Quote:
"I think another thing to remember when a person is raped, molested, or any form of sexual abuse, it's not about sexual gratification. It's about power. In this particular case, I would not be at all surprised if he was a victim of such going ons.


Thank you! I was going to point this out, but then I saw that you posted this. This is a very solid point!


Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:21 pm
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
Christophe wrote:
Revolutions have a tendency to bring out the worst elements of society (the dregs) and place them in positions of power. We can see this in the French and Russian Revolutions, in the Nazi takeover of Germany; and watch it unfold in present day Africa. However dysfunctional the old regime may be, the cure (revolution) is often worse than the illness.

As for the poor little Dauphin, perhaps there is a tiny bit of comfort in knowing that he probably would not have lived to adulthood even if he'd remained in the best of care. There were signs that he had the same genetic disorder that killed his elder brother.


I was under the impression that Louis-Joseph died of tuberculosis at age 7. ???


Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:22 am
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
True - but he was the first son of MA and Louis XVI whom died- Louis Charles, second son was the child imprisoned with the royal family - basically murdered (slowly) by the revolutionaries. I still find it unreal that grown men treated a little boy the way they did. Deborah Cadbury's book is very good!


Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:20 pm
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Post Re: What actually happened to the young Dauphin?
One point to remember, is that Tuberculosis is not a genetic disease in and of itself. Ther are studies that suggest that some people harbor a genetic pre disposition in that the copy of the gene makes them more likely to develop it after exposure. The medical geneaology of the Bourbons would be an interesting study .


Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:25 am
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