Marie Antoinette Online
  • FORUM
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:43 pm



Reply to topic  [ 403 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27  Next
 Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette? 
Author Message
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Précisément, ma chère Thérèse ! This innocence of Marie Antoinette could also explain why Louis XVI appreciated Fersen so much. He trusted him so that he gave him this secret and so important mission of organizing his flight to Montmedy.

Even after the failure of this escape, Louis XVI kept Fersen as his secret agent between the French monarchy and the courts of Europe. The whole double politics of the king passed through Marie Antoinette and Fersen.

Fersen himself loved Louis XVI so much that his death almost killed him. Aren't we far from those feelings a man could have for his mistress' husband ? On the contrary, Fersen only had noble and elevated feelings for the illfated king of France he tried so hard to rescue.

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:42 am
Profile
Royalty
Royalty
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1981
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
If Fersen didn't care for Louis and Antoinette he wouldn't have tried to help them escape in the first place.

_________________
"Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown."-William Shakespeare


Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:19 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Yes, dear friends. And in his letters, Fersen always refers to the King and Queen with mutual reverence.

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:56 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Thérèse wrote:

No, she merely wants you to supply documentation to back up your theories. One can only assume that a person has not read certain scholarly works when he does not quote directly from them.

Heavy and presumptious assumption....I have read quite a lot about this subject actually, but most of it in French, which I tend not to quote here for obvious reasons. For reasons of economics, some of the books were from the library which makes it difficult to subsequently quote from them. However the Queen's correspondence, Petitfils' Louis XVI and Bertière's bio are constant companions. Pim certainly knows and maybe you too that a whole list of biographers (good or bad) do not share your view on this subject. For example Lever, Bertière, Petitfils, Fraser, Castelot, Dufresne, Dufour. On the other side you could put Webster, Girault de Coursac, Loomis and Delorme, whose contributions are not to be under-estimated, quite the contrary, they are potentially the most thorough. Reading through the recent posts on this subject, I can't help feeling that there is a desire on your's and Pim's part to preserve, come what may, MA as a faithful Queen. Physically she maybe was (though I believe this unlikely), but what hurts any partner most is unfaithfulness in the mind. This is what caused Louis XVI to cry so bitterly whilst out hunting once when he read through correspondence between the Queen and Fersen. Marie Antoinette had quite different feelings for her husband, which can be described as a sincere and deep attachment for the father of her children, and which blossomed into a kind of love in later life, when they were thrown together in adversity. Because indeed for the major part of their existence they had not been together, leading separately the often "lonely in a crowd" life of court. It is not to her husband that she could have written so passionately from the Tuileries: "It is impossible for you to come here at this moment! It would be to risk our happiness, and when I say this, one can believe it, as I have an extreme desire to see you..." I won't quote again the letter which Pim always maintains as apocryphal, because it was written in code and as such avoided the censure of Fersen's descendants, in which MA refers to the most loving and beloved of men...A number of eye witnesses(The Swedish Ambassador, the Duchess of Fitz James, the British Ambassador) recount the clear and obvious emotion of the Queen prior to Fersen's departure for America. Governor Morris even states in his diaries in his usual matter of fact style that the only remarkable thing about Fersen was the fact that he was the Queen's lover. And Governor Morris, the US plenipotentiary, moved in all the right circles.

It is true that the Queen was in a rôle of representation, chaperoned, spied upon, even hounded in later life. Despite this fact this Queen was revolutionary in as far as she managed to procure some private life, indeed her aspiration right from the onset was to withdraw from the constraints of court etiquette as much as possible. As Petitfils states, the mention of "by order of the Queen" at the entrance to Trianon was unheard of before...traditionally the Queen was nothing without the King! Equally unheard of was a secret visit (not the first so it seems) by Fersen to her appartments in the Tuileries on the 13th February 1792. Even if the Queen's room was guarded by the revolutionary guards, Fersen manages to get past. Strange, is it not? Either her rooms were not as well guarded as all that, or orders had been given to let Fersen pass! It has to be one or the other! Fersen sees the King the following day, hardly very courtly behaviour! And Petitfils goes on to describe a court in full mutation before the fall, the attendance of courtiers in sharp decline because of the behaviour of the sovereigns, especially that of the young Queen who had no time for the stuffy obligations of her rôle and who deliberately formed a circle of favourites of her own, and displaced the centre of her court from the palace to Trianon. Petitfils writes:

"In the court system MA had introduced a triplefold rupture, menacing the balance of the whole: young against old, newly established minor nobility against old, private life against public life." I would go on to add a fourth: Queen against King, because in so doing she usurped a rôle reserved until then for the King alone, that of holding court and of being the host.

Events then conspired to make this shift in emphasis, this transformation, even more marked, with the court (what's left of it) moving or being moved to the Tuileries. A captive King and Queen was hardly the norm, barriers were broken down, the family lived together far more promiscuously than before, the parents actually saw a lot of their children. Nothing was as before, and in this strange new environment why should set behaviour not change as well? We know that Fersen visited the Queen also at St Cloud at this time, and that Lafayette tolerated these visits....for reasons of maybe hoping to use these visits against her at some stage? He was living in Auteuil and went there on foot. Even before the Tuileries exodus, we know that the Queen had procured for herself some surprizing private rooms at Versailles. As the Baron de Besenval, who had been given a private audience with the Queen in one of these deserted rooms in the castle, exclaims: 'I was surprized not that the Queen had such facilities, but rather by the fact that she had dared procure them!'

In conclusion it seems that the two protagonists here who are so convinced of the absence of a love affair (consummated or not) between MA and Fersen conveniently explain away so much curious evidence, be it epistolary (the famous exchange of letters addressed to Joséphine, MA's third given name, concerning the "niche au poêle" for example) or that of contemporaries witnessing this unique attraction. One can find a reason for everything if one tries hard enough, but for me (and for many others) there's too much smoke here to not find a fire somewhere. Please note that I have put in this post just some of the many arguments that can be raised. There's more if you need it.

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:22 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
baron de batz wrote:
Heavy and presumptious assumption....I have read quite a lot about this subject actually, but most of it in French, which I tend not to quote here for obvious reasons.


Why? Quote anything you want. We can stand it.

baron de batz wrote:
Reading through the recent posts on this subject, I can't help feeling that there is a desire on your's and Pim's part to preserve, come what may, MA as a faithful Queen.


This is a heavy and presumptuous assumption, considering you do not really know us at all.

baron de batz wrote:
This is what caused Louis XVI to cry so bitterly whilst out hunting once when he read through correspondence between the Queen and Fersen.

I thought he was crying over the rather desperate political situation.

baron de batz wrote:
Governor Morris even states in his diaries in his usual matter of fact style that the only remarkable thing about Fersen was the fact that he was the Queen's lover. And Governor Morris, the US plenipotentiary, moved in all the right circles.


Yes, he frequented the Palais Royale, where all the best gossip about the Queen was to be had.


baron de batz wrote:
In conclusion it seems that the two protagonists here who are so convinced of the absence of a love affair...


Are you referring to Pim and myself? We are not the only ones here who do not believe there was a love affair. Baron, your rude and condescending tone is just too much.

As for the Queen receiving Fersen at the Tuileries, here are quotes from Imbert de Saint-Amand's Marie-Antoinette at the Tuileries.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id= ... 4VRR4GGDQQ

The queen, especially, was closely guarded (as anyone can see, it would have been impossible for her to have bedded Count Fersen, as some authors claim.)

Quote:
It had been resolved that [the queen] should have no personal attendant except the lady's maid who had acted as a spy before the journey to Varennes. A portrait of this person was placed at the foot of the staircase leading to the Queen's rooms so that the sentinel should permit no other woman to enter. Louis XVI was obliged to appeal to Lafayette in order to have this spy turned out of the palace where her presence was an outrage on Marie Antoinette. This espionage and inquisition pursued the unfortunate Queen even into her bedroom. The guards were instructed not to lose sight of her by night or day. They took note of her slightest gestures, listened to her slightest words. Stationed in the room adjoining hers they kept the communicating door always open so that they could see the august captive at all times. (pp223-224)


Quote:
The precautions taken were so rigorous that it was forbidden to say Mass in the palace chapel because the distance between it and the apartments of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette was thought too great. A corner of the Gallery of Diana, where a wooden altar was erected, bearing an ebony crucifix and a few vases of flowers became the only spot where the son of Saint Louis, the Most Christian King, could hear Mass. (pp.225-226)

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:21 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Firstly if you want to see condescension, just look at the quote at the beginning of my post. Sometimes condescension is met by condescension....and it seems that I am not the only victim of condescension in this post. As for rudeness, well if disagreement is rudeness, then I am rude, otherwise I defy you to find rudeness in my post.

I was aware of Imbert de Saint Armand's referral to the strict security surrounding the Queen at the Tuileries. All the more reason to be surprized to see Fersen breach this security so easily!

Governor Morris frequented le 'tout Paris", not just the Palais Royale, but I do not say that he didn't hear a lot of gossip. That was inevitable. It depends what one believes, as always. One things for sure, unlike the Orléanists, he had no vested interest in slandering the Queen, and in his writings is always supportive of her.

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:27 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:04 am
Posts: 253
Location: Texas.
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Ah, here we go again. Will this feud never be settled?

I personally do not care one way or the other, if MA endulged in an affair with Fersen. If she did, it only proves that she was human, and should not detract from her character. If she did not, than it shows a great fortitude on her part; for one thing I am certain. Ma and Louis XVI did not share a passionate relationship.

_________________
"One grows accustomed to one's enemy, and by making it familiar one loses the desire to get rid of it...." Marquise de la Tour du Pin, in a letter to her friend Mme. de Duras.


Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:44 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
baron de batz wrote:
Firstly if you want to see condescension, just look at the quote at the beginning of my post. Sometimes condescension is met by condescension....and it seems that I am not the only victim of condescension in this post.


It is condescension to ask you to support your claims? I do not understand.

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Last edited by Therese on Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:47 pm
Profile
Duc/Duchesse
Duc/Duchesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:12 pm
Posts: 219
Location: Sweden
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I can not find anything rude in what baron de batz wrote. The atmosphere in this thread has been a bit tense, to say the least - but that's not only (or at all) Baron's doing.

Even if I do not agree with Baron it is very interesting to hear his/your opinion - and interesting to hear the response. Even if some of his/your "points" already have been brought up here... You always have the right to explain your opinions. (I, personally, am not very fond of people who enter a discussion without reading through what have already been said, but that is absolutely not the case here.)

_________________
Blifwit quar, igen


Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:26 pm
Profile
Comte/Comtesse
Comte/Comtesse

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 3:13 am
Posts: 49
Location: Florida
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
To Pim and Therese
What I have gotten from your posts mostly is the feeling that you would never slander MA's name. You want the facts and for this forum not to turn into a modern MA tabloid. After re-reading a lot of posts I have really got to respect the 2 of you. Above all, we know that too many things have been fabricated about Antoinette and she suffered for it. She lost her family and her own life. I can't remember exactly but she said something like, you have taken my crown, my husband, the only thing left is my blood...like I said I can't remember exactly.

I wish people during the revolution could have been as level headed. I commend you for taking the Queen's reputation so seriously. No matter what I think of the MA/Fersen affair, I am glad now to have read your (everybody's) posts and will be more careful now with what and why I assume about anyone.

I also feel a desperate desire to learn French!!


Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:00 pm
Profile WWW
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
AxelRocksMyWorld wrote:
To Pim and Therese
What I have gotten from your posts mostly is the feeling that you would never slander MA's name. You want the facts and for this forum not to turn into a modern MA tabloid. After re-reading a lot of posts I have really got to respect the 2 of you.



Thank you.

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:12 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Hans Axel wrote:
I can not find anything rude in what baron de batz wrote.


I am sorry, Hans Axel, I disagree. I think that the Baron was rude. It is not necessary to label Pim and myself as "protagonists." What is that supposed to mean? That we see ourselves as heroines in a movie? It is also discourteous to infer that we have some deep need for a "pure" Marie-Antoinette. I would love her no matter what. I enjoy discussions (and have been discussing this topic for two years) but cannot do so when such intrusive personal remarks are made.

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:24 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:04 pm
Posts: 2266
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
As for the Duchesse de FitzJames, a great-niece of Fersen, she is quoted by Nesta Webster in the second volume of Webster's work on Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette. The Duchesse said:
Quote:
I desire first of all to do away with the lying legend, based on a calumny, which distorted the relations between Marie-Antoinette and Fersen, relations consisting in absolute devotion, in complete abnegation on one side, and on the other in friendship, profound, trusting and grateful. People have wished to degrade to the vulgarities of a love novel, facts which were otherwise terrible, sentiments which were otherwise lofty.

_________________
I forgive all my enemies the harm they have done me.


Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:45 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
I just fell upon your enormous post, baron. Here you go again... No, Therese, Hans Axel, I and many others here who don't share your views are not trying to protect the queen's reputation. They are only referring to sources.

Please don't mix Dufresne with biographies ! This book is but romance, only romance... And do you really rely on Dufour and this scene in the library ? You must be kidding...

Then, are you reffering to this scene when Louis XVI cried his eyes out because he found letters ? Do you suppose he did so for these mentioned Fersen and Antoinette's affair ? Please note that no one actually knows about this story, and that other interpretations have been given by historians.

Now, please give us one single letter of our queen showing that she loved count Fersen. Oh... , yes, you did...

Quote:
It is not to her husband that she could have written so passionately from the Tuileries: "It is impossible for you to come here at this moment! It would be to risk our happiness, and when I say this, one can believe it, as I have an extreme desire to see you..."

Do you really find it passionate ? The word is yours. I am sorry, but, here, I only see concern and friendship... Or maybe you read this passion between the lines, and that is but personal interpretation.

Quote:
I won't quote again the letter which Pim always maintains as apocryphal, because it was written in code and as such avoided the censure of Fersen's descendants, in which MA refers to the most loving and beloved of men...

No, please don't... I read many interpretations of the reason why this letter was written in cypher, but yours I read for the first time ! This letter is not signed, why would Fersen or anybody else feel concerned with the censure of descendants ?! And that is the point, precisely... When you read this letter, you clearly see this could not have been written by Marie Antoinette, because its contents comes into contradiction with actual letters of our queen !

But if you have rather go on dreaming... Please allow me to remind you that this coded letter is not written by our queen, neither in ordinar handwriting, nor in cypher. And that is another point... Who wrote this and why ?

Quote:
A number of eye witnesses(The Swedish Ambassador, the Duchess of Fitz James, the British Ambassador) recount the clear and obvious emotion of the Queen prior to Fersen's departure for America. Governor Morris even states in his diaries in his usual matter of fact style that the only remarkable thing about Fersen was the fact that he was the Queen's lover. And Governor Morris, the US plenipotentiary, moved in all the right circles.

No, Duchess de Fitz James does not "recount the clear and obvious emotion of the queen prior to Fersen's departure for America". She only makes a joke, asking him if he would let his conquest behind. Where do you read emotion here ?

If you refer to this Dido part Marie Antoinette is supposed to sing with her eyes full of tears, please remember that this opera would be written several years after... Another legend, I am afraid...

Governor Morris, you could add Napoleon... What do those people ? They only repeat a rumor... Rumors never were facts, dear baron. Persistent rumors said Marie Antoinette slept with Artois, Polignac, Lauzun, Coigny, Lamballe... Between you and me, do you really think she did ?

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:58 am
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:54 am
Posts: 2040
Post Re: Count Axel von Fersen and Marie Antoinette?
Quote:
It is true that the Queen was in a rôle of representation, chaperoned, spied upon, even hounded in later life. Despite this fact this Queen was revolutionary in as far as she managed to procure some private life, indeed her aspiration right from the onset was to withdraw from the constraints of court etiquette as much as possible. As Petitfils states, the mention of "by order of the Queen" at the entrance to Trianon was unheard of before...traditionally the Queen was nothing without the King! Equally unheard of was a secret visit (not the first so it seems) by Fersen to her appartments in the Tuileries on the 13th February 1792. Even if the Queen's room was guarded by the revolutionary guards, Fersen manages to get past. Strange, is it not? Either her rooms were not as well guarded as all that, or orders had been given to let Fersen pass! It has to be one or the other!

No, there could be other solutions. This single night, passionnate or not, only relied on Söderjhelm's reading of a little passage from Fersen's diary. And Madame Söderjhelm may be wrong... It would not be for the first time, after all... You'd better read her book, you'll see how irrelevant her explanations are.

I wonder why so many authors still rely on these, after all ? And even serious scholars such as Lever, Bertiere and Petitfils, you are right, baron. Maybe because French historians too rarely read books that are not written in French ?

_________________
te voir encore me rappelle à la vie


Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:05 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 403 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.