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 If Louis had married someone else? 
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Post Re: Re:
Wesley wrote:
Therese wrote:
I think CATBOOTS meant that many people, other than the erudite members of this forum, often forget how young Louis and Antoinette actually were.


They were only young by today's standards, and thus their ages are no more interesting to me than the age of Tutankhamun when he became king. Adolescence is a societal construct that didn't exist at the time of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI.


Yes, but in their case, youth and inexperience went together.

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Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:12 pm
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Post Re: Re:
Therese wrote:
Wesley wrote:
Therese wrote:
I think CATBOOTS meant that many people, other than the erudite members of this forum, often forget how young Louis and Antoinette actually were.


They were only young by today's standards, and thus their ages are no more interesting to me than the age of Tutankhamun when he became king. Adolescence is a societal construct that didn't exist at the time of Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI.


Yes, but in their case, youth and inexperience went together.


I disagree... I think they were no more inexperienced at running a country when they became king and queen than they would have been if they'd been 49 and 50 when they became king and queen.


Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:19 pm
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Post Re: Re:
Wesley wrote:

I disagree... I think they were no more inexperienced at running a country when they became king and queen than they would have been if they'd been 49 and 50 when they became king and queen.


I am sorry, but even the most basic study of the life of Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette will show, from letters and memoirs, that the king and queen, especially the queen, matured a great deal from the time of their marriage. This is obvious from reading even Antonia Fraser's popular biography. Nesta Webster makes an in-depth study of it in her two volume work, which I would highly recommend.

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Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:35 pm
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Post Re: Re:
Therese wrote:
Wesley wrote:

I disagree... I think they were no more inexperienced at running a country when they became king and queen than they would have been if they'd been 49 and 50 when they became king and queen.


I am sorry, but even the most basic study of the life of Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette will show, from letters and memoirs, that the king and queen, especially the queen, matured a great deal from the time of their marriage. This is obvious from reading even Antonia Fraser's popular biography. Nesta Webster makes an in-depth study of it in her two volume work, which I would highly recommend.


I am not denying that. All I'm saying is that it does not make sense to talk about how young they were when in fact they were not young by the standards of the time. This has nothing to do with whether or not they matured from the time of their marriage. People can mature between the ages of 60 and 80 as well; this does not mean that 60 is a young age. In fact, one of the things I most liked about Antonia Fraser's biography is that it did not, like some, talk about Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI's early life as if they were young, how they would likely have been viewed today, but rather talked about them in the context that they would have been seen at the time.


Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:58 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
I agree today's standards Antoinette and Louis would have been young to have gotten married. In the 18th century, Antoinette was considered to be at the proper age to be married because if she had not married Louis, her husband would have been around his thirties. Louis XVI would have been considered young to have gotten married.A young man who is under thirty years old would be considered a "young pup" and they needed time to establish themselves economically.

However Louis XVI was the Dauphin and he did not need to worry about establishing himself. ;)

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Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:34 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
I think 18 is still very young....they had not really much expierience of anything....

even 18 was alright in that century......

I remember of beeing 18....and I remember I thought I know a lot....but now...years later I know that had no clue at all....

hm....well I don't know how to express it..

reine :angel6:


Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:01 am
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
I HHve to disagree. Louis XIV took personal power when he was around 20, even his father, Louis XIII, after having murdered Concini, was overshadowed by his friend Luynes to rule the kingdom: h hardly ever had personal power. Louis XVI, unlike Louis XIII and Louis XIV never had a mother that exerted regency and never enjoyed a proper education to reign like the previous kings (particularly, no military education, but also no travel throughout the country). At 20 you were a grown up in the XVIII century, tht is true, but previous reigns highlight that kings were first educated and only acquired complete power after the death of their mother, if she was a "regente", or of a powerful ministre : they had time to watch and learn. BY the time Louis XVI became king, it had been suspicious to have a "prime ministre" since Mazarin. And himself was too proud to appoint one. So he was both young and inexeprienced to becaome a king and exert his power.

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Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:12 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
Ludy wrote:
I HHve to disagree. Louis XIV took personal power when he was around 20, even his father, Louis XIII, after having murdered Concini, was overshadowed by his friend Luynes to rule the kingdom: h hardly ever had personal power. Louis XVI, unlike Louis XIII and Louis XIV never had a mother that exerted regency and never enjoyed a proper education to reign like the previous kings (particularly, no military education, but also no travel throughout the country). At 20 you were a grown up in the XVIII century, tht is true, but previous reigns highlight that kings were first educated and only acquired complete power after the death of their mother, if she was a "regente", or of a powerful ministre : they had time to watch and learn. BY the time Louis XVI became king, it had been suspicious to have a "prime ministre" since Mazarin. And himself was too proud to appoint one. So he was both young and inexeprienced to becaome a king and exert his power.


This is a very good point, Ludy!

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Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:16 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
Ludy wrote:
I HHve to disagree. Louis XIV took personal power when he was around 20, even his father, Louis XIII, after having murdered Concini, was overshadowed by his friend Luynes to rule the kingdom: h hardly ever had personal power. Louis XVI, unlike Louis XIII and Louis XIV never had a mother that exerted regency and never enjoyed a proper education to reign like the previous kings (particularly, no military education, but also no travel throughout the country). At 20 you were a grown up in the XVIII century, tht is true, but previous reigns highlight that kings were first educated and only acquired complete power after the death of their mother, if she was a "regente", or of a powerful ministre : they had time to watch and learn. BY the time Louis XVI became king, it had been suspicious to have a "prime ministre" since Mazarin. And himself was too proud to appoint one. So he was both young and inexeprienced to becaome a king and exert his power.



It's a shame that Louis did not receive a decent education because they thought his father and eldest brother would rule. What really makes me angry is that people died and they should have taken into consideration that they could both die and therefore each of the princes should receive an equal education.

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Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:28 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
Kings easily think themselves immortal! They shouldn't have to...

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Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:48 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
During the time of Louis XVI's reign, France was a hotbed for revolution. He could have married a number of other princesses from other countries and the results would have been the same. The idea of marrying an Austrian appealed to a few people, but I think the results in France would have been the same ecven if he married an English or Spanish princess... the fact remains that Louis XVI was ill-prepared for the monarchy.


Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:45 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
reine wrote:
I think 18 is still very young....they had not really much expierience of anything....

even 18 was alright in that century......

I remember of beeing 18....and I remember I thought I know a lot....but now...years later I know that had no clue at all....

hm....well I don't know how to express it..

reine :angel6:


Obviously you know more now than you did then, because you learn as you live, but consider this: years from now, you will know much more than you do now, and you will look back on today and realize that, in comparison, you had no clue at all. Years from that point, you may have the same realization again, then again years from then, and so on.


Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:58 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
Wesley wrote:
reine wrote:
I think 18 is still very young....they had not really much expierience of anything....

even 18 was alright in that century......

I remember of beeing 18....and I remember I thought I know a lot....but now...years later I know that had no clue at all....

hm....well I don't know how to express it..

reine :angel6:


Obviously you know more now than you did then, because you learn as you live, but consider this: years from now, you will know much more than you do now, and you will look back on today and realize that, in comparison, you had no clue at all. Years from that point, you may have the same realization again, then again years from then, and so on.


yes...you might be right :wink:

reine :angel6:


Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:08 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
{quote} At 20 you were a grown up in the XVIII century, tht is true, but previous reigns highlight that kings were first educated and only acquired complete power after the death of their mother, if she was a "regente", or of a powerful ministre : they had time to watch and learn.

At 18 you are considered a grown-up in the United States, but does that mean an 18 year old IS a grown-up? I think not! Of course there are some people who by 18 can possess some grown-up qualities - but 18 years is not long enough to live to aquire experiences that only living life brings.
Louis XIV's mother Anne of Austria was Regent during his minority, and Louis XIV did take the reigns as a young teen. But - he was the product of a mother who loved him immensely and had only his interests at heart. She made sure she did her job. And she made him a strong King. So, young with the right guidance, was a successful combination for his reign. Completely different story for Louis XVI. I do not think that a different wife would have made the difference for him, because he was a weak and indecisive man. It was Louis who did not control his situation. Even when Marie Antoinette thought he should take action - he couldn't make timely decisions that may have helped their situation.


Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:34 pm
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Post Re: If Louis had married someone else?
Wow,I've never really thought of that...
I do suppose that the situation would be different maybe.
M.A would maybe have become famous for something else and the whole beheading the royals thing would have never happened!
But what do I know?


Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:59 pm
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