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 Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade 
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
ShaktiValkyrie wrote:
I get confused at times and this is a good example. It's more of a moral confusion in that I love history and do my best to gather as much knowledge as I can. Sade is apart of that. As are his books. My confusion stems from where is the line. To be able to speak with knowledge about him means reading his work, but how much must one read? I agree with baron de batz (which seems to be a common thing lol) about history and morals. The readers of this board know that I have often said that I do my best to not judge history by todays morals and standards (Probably so much I should make that my signature. LOL). At times that can be a hard thing to do. If a man like Sade existed today and published novels from jail, would I read them? No. That simple.
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The 18th century was nothing if not libidinous.
Being rather liberal I don't mind that aspect of it. And yes in the end only I can answer for me but I find myself confused at times asking how much knowledge do I really want.
Hummm, sorry for the ramble. I wonder if any others ever have this feeling?
:?


I think all. I was thinking about it, I wanted to read all of his books, I’d like to read all books from a certain author and somehow I thought of him. Now, I don’t think I am going to do that. I don’t think it would bring me any benefit or enjoyment since his philosophy and mine are hard to match. I am reading La Philosophie dans le boudoir, and, after Les Crimes de L’amour, I would definitely say that philosophy of his certain characters is his own. That’s why I would rather continue with Nietze or Freud. Since I question religion, morality, I am interested in these, how to call them, rather controversial authors, but I don’t find Marquis de Sade a serious author, philosopher… Still, I forbid myself to give a general opinion after only one book!
I had that feeling “how much knowledge do I really want” but I don’t ask myself anymore. :wink: It is in my nature to want to know and even if I don’t want to know certain things just reveal themselves to me so no time to wonder! That’s in general. The other reason why I am not sure shall I continue reading Marquis de Sade after this second book, is that I’ve heard that he discusses zoophilia, bestiality, which is one of the rare things that could seriously ruin my mental health (reading about it), even a small indication of animal cruelty or abuse can disturb me enormously. I am too sensitive, people know that and protect me from anything connected to animal cruelty. That is definitely that line for me because that “knowledge” I wouldn’t be able de stand!

I agree with Versailles, many people would read such novels. Too many examples. People like controversy, scandals… to escape their boring lives reading some vicious material they pretend to detest... Shameful, but again would I even know for him if it wasn’t for all that controversy, would I even read him?? :o
I didn’t finish La Philosophie dans le boudoir, so far I wouldn’t recommend for under 18! :angel12: This seems to be his common style.

I wait for Anouk to tell me her opinion about 120 days of Sodom. I thought I was reading something perverse but then, yesterday, my friend told me about the book she was reading, I think she said the title was A Teacher… Made me think that Marquis was just fine!

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Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:35 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
Thank you for both replies! :)
Marija Vera I like what you have said and I agree with a lot of it. I find myself in similar situations asking," How much knowledge do I really want?" However, like you, I end up being too curious not to keep going And you are correct ,
Quote:
certain things just reveal themselves to me so no time to wonder! That’s in general.

I also agree with you when these kinds of stories will throw in something to do with animals. I remember watching Flowers in the Attic. I actually liked it. It's a pretty twisted story, but...
So I thought I would read the book. Bad idea. There is a part in the book that has to do with harming a dog that was definitely not in the movie (I know movies of books can be grossly reworked) so I never saw it coming. Right then I shut the book and gave it to the library. That was 16 years ago and I still remember it. LOL Humm, I think an epiphany just occurred, I have read most of Sades shorter stories and they all end up being the same in the end. Apparently I already know enough to hold my own in a conversation about him. :lol:
Yep, while writing that last sentence I think I just answered my own question. To me all his writing seem to somehow be the same. Having discovered that, I think I will move on to other controversial and banned books. Thought having noticed it's 4:56am, I think I shall slumber first. :wink:

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Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:03 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
I have finished La Philosophie dans le boudoir, the end was terrible, he was a sick man indeed… Personally, I don’t mind anyone having a different sexual orientation or habits, I don’t care what’s happening in other people’s bedroom as far as that is not hurting anyone’s rights. Child molesting, raping, seems to be something quite normal in the books by Marquis de Sade and I believe that he invented that philosophy *everything is allowed by nature* only to justify himself, his own life style. It is really worthy to read it, I find it so inconvincibly, unrealistic that I’d gladly discuss it any time.
ShaktiValkyrie wrote:
I have read most of Sades shorter stories and they all end up being the same in the end.

I got the similar impression after two books. The characters from the previous have the same philosophy as characters here, only the style was different in the Crimes of love, I wrote the explanation. Here we have again one enlightened individual, villain, who explains his philosophy… Basically under a mask of a novel Sade offers us his controversial philosophy of a total liberty, primarily sexual. Still, when you read what he actually means by it (I cannot dissociate him and that enlightened individual, idea is always the same) you see how inconvincible, anarchic it really is, all in favour of the mighty nature, so appreciated after the Rousseau. Now, that’s the impression I’ve got, I don’t know whether I’m mistaken, maybe the case is different with other books. That’s why, I believe, it is necessary to read all of them plus some critics so we could even speak about the subject. That is if we stumble upon some intellectual circle, where we can find some expert in the French literature or just Marquis de Sade enthusiast… I’m not sure how many "normal" people, I know, would be even able to figure out about who I am talking about! Well, if it wasn’t for that term sadism… :wink:

I need help about this. This is what I found written in the short chronology of Sade’s life. (something like this)
1793- He was arrested because he refused to agree with a certain inhuman proposition, he was accused for being too mild (?) and arrested before the end of the year.

He worked for revolution then, does anyone know what exactly had happened? Does it had to do something with the royal executions or something completely different???

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Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:14 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
I did a bit of research and from what I understand, his imprisonment had to do with Robespierre. I hope these paragraphs may be of some help. If not, at least some more knowledge about his life in 1793.

Quote:
Eventually he resigned his post, and as a result, in December of 1793, he was imprisoned for "moderatism", as strange as that seems. After serving a 375 day sentence, he wrote:

"My government imprisonment, with the guillotine before my eyes, did me more harm than all the Bastilles imaginable."

"The excesses of the Terror have dulled the taste for crime." -- Saint Just

"In order to derive pleasure from the humiliation of and exaltation of the flesh one must ascribe value to the flesh." -- Simone de Beauvoir
Source: http://www.popsubculture.com/pop/bio_pr ... _sade.html


Please forgive me, I forgot to save the link that these came from. I'm sure if you Googled A few of the sentences you can find them.

Quote:
Appalled by the Reign of Terror in 1793, he wrote an admiring eulogy for Jean-Paul Marat to secure his position. Then he resigned his posts, was accused of "moderatism" and imprisoned for over a year. He barely escaped the guillotine, probably due to an administrative error. This experience presumably confirmed his life-long detestation of state tyranny and especially of the death penalty. He was released in 1794, after the overthrow and execution of Maximilien Robespierre had effectively ended the Reign of Terror.



During the Revolution, Sade was released from prison, served as secretary and president of the Piques section of Paris, and represented it at least once before the National Convention, where he addressed a pamphlet calling for the abolition of capital punishment and the enfranchisement of women. His attitudes and actions gained the hatred of Maximilien de Robespierre, who had him imprisoned (1793). He was saved only by the death of the "Incorruptible."


His relations with the Revolution were no happier. He described himself in a letter to his agent, Gaufridy (December 1791), as neither aristocrat nor democrat, but possessed of a dislike of the Jacobins. An ‘Adresse au roi des Français’ (June 1791) on the royal family's return from Varennes shows him in favour of a reformed monarchy. His anti-aristocratic drama Le Comte Oxtiern, ou les Effets du libertinage, which received two showings in October 1791, was a failed attempt to exploit revolutionary sentiment for dramatic success. The brochure ‘Français, encore un effort si vous voulez etre républicains’, included in La Philosophie dans le boudoir (1795), is a plea for licence for the passions, not political reform. But as a prudent man, Sade obtained from his section (Place Vendôme) in July 1790 his carte de citoyen actif, and performed the appropriate duties. Arrested on 8 December 1793 because his name appeared in error on a list with others denounced for conspiracy, he missed the guillotine by a bureaucratic accident and was released after the fall of Robespierre in 1794.


On a side note in 1793 he wrote La Philosophie dans Ie Boudoir (Philosophy in the Bedroom) in the same year a rival writer Rétif de la Bretonne published his Anti-Justine.

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Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:35 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
‘Français, encore un effort si vous voulez etre républicains’- included in La Philosophie dans le boudoir (1795) - yes, you should read this brochure! Here we have all his views. I may share some quotes but it is better to read it. There is that interesting part of women role in the society and how should a woman behave towards the men...

Thank you!

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Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:51 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
I've read Justine and a few other de Sade writings. Very, very disturbing. I cannot even recount the violent, perverse details.


Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:26 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
My friend was going to the library so I gave her to return the books by Sade I took. I have told her something about him, these books and others, and she returned home with 120 days of Sodom (my intention was not to promote his books! :roll: ) She said that she would tell me about it and the same evening we went out…she had read about 100 pages! So she started the story of four elderly men and their amusements… From what she told me, I believe the only way for a normal person to even open this book, is to be sure that this is the work of pure fiction and only fiction. I don’t know will I read it, I’ll see when she finish it.

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Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:20 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
Marija Vera wrote:
Has anybody read his writings?
I’ve heard that he wrote so perverse and sick things, far from the normal eroticism in the literature that kind.



I'm reading his work ( even if I have to do it at home, if somebody sees my on train reading De Sade could have bad things about me :lol: )
I must absolutely say that his tales are full of..philosophy! Yes, of course he understood that people would read sexual or death tales, so he used this kind of subject to speak about philosophy. The ideas he put in them are very dangerous, most of all considering the period in which he lived, and these ideas would justify any kind of crime.
But I was really shocked to find such things in De Sade's work.
I started reading cause I like everithing born during french golden age and also cause I have to read by myself before judging :angel1:


Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:13 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
But I haven'r read everything! :biggrin:


Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:14 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
I bet you're having fun! :lol:

Have you read "La Nouvelle Justine" yet? Please share your impressions. It might spice up this sleepy forum somewhat! :lol:

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Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:07 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
Well you inspired me Princesse to fill in finally what was an unacceptable gap in my 18th century education so i got out "La Philosophie du Boudoir" from the library today!

Wonderful intelligent French writing style for a start...and he's making me laugh so far!

Hold on tight ladies and fasten your seatbelts, as it could be a bumpy ride! :wink:

The Baron is reading De Sade!!! :twisted:

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:19 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
Well I have just discovered one thing....there is a definite Rousseau influence in his writing! Sex is affiliated to nature, as an indomitable and irresistible force. Perversity for him seems to be to resist it's dominion.

I see that Marija Vera read this. I will check her much earlier posts too.

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:24 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
baron de batz wrote:
I bet you're having fun! :lol:

Have you read "La Nouvelle Justine" yet? Please share your impressions. It might spice up this sleepy forum somewhat! :lol:

Yessssssssss I've read the first verion ( the short one De Sade wrote maybe to make uop his mind) and the longer version, ( with a lot of details :cat: )
I think, as I said before, that there is a lot of philosophi in his works.
I mean, characters talk about justice, the way poors have to revange their situation against rich persons, ( the solution is a warning behavoiur wich justify any criminal act, I don't know if I agree with it..)
But considering the period in which he writes, it is abolsutely a son of Rosseau!.
:angel1:


Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:09 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
Princesse wrote:

Yessssssssss I've read the first verion ( the short one De Sade wrote maybe to make uop his mind) and the longer version, ( with a lot of details )


You're very well read Mademoiselle!! :lol:

Indeed as De Sade puts it in the preface of "Philosophie du Boudoir", this literature is "destined for the education of young demoiselles"! :lol:

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:20 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI and Marquis de Sade
De Sade is indeed more than just licentious in his writing. However as usual we simplify everything to the lowest common denominator, in other words De Sade means just sadism.

In the 3rd dialogue he disserts quite brilliantly on the existence of God, or for him the non-existence of God, which frees Man to follow his natural instincts.....but then how does he explain our sense of "conscience"? Purely through being programmed to feel guilty by society from a young age? That can be part of it, but also from a young age I find we instinctively know right from wrong, good from bad. Ok he considers eroticism to be wholly good, but we know that he knows no limits, and even the most liberal thinking of us reject certain of his practices! One thng is sure, what is seen as acceptable and what is not is subject to change through time. We are far more prudish about mistresses and extra marital affairs than they were in the 18th century (a time when in high society it was not considered 'bon ton" to love one's wife too openly! :lol: ), which is no doubt why we have a 50% divorce rate in big cities where the "offer" is so extensive, and not just for men!!

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:47 pm
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