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 Grotto 
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Royalty
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Post Re: Grotto
Ladies, it is difficult to sense the tone or purpose behind what we write here, so it is easy for conversations to devolve into miscommunication and hurt. Let's try to let it go. :rainbow:

I would love to have my wedding at the Petit Trianon and then have a private moment of relaxation and beauty in the Grotto with my husband. :angel3: I wonder if Louis respected Marie Antoinette's privacy with her children, or spent time in there, too?

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Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:58 am
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Post Re: Grotto
Quote:
I would love to have my wedding at the Petit Trianon and then have a private moment of relaxation and beauty in the Grotto with my husband. I wonder if Louis respected Marie Antoinette's privacy with her children, or spent time in there, too?


I think he was invited some times to visit Marie Antoinette's private Petit Trianon, but he never went there without her wife's permission :)

I would be so nice if Versailles was permitted to hold weddings there! I'd love it so much!



Quote:
Lilly wrote:
A tryst does not necessarily mean sex.

Therese wrote:
That's good to know......


I just do not understand why she was so biting and ironic. On this forum people generally contradict others' opionion without being rude. This time it did not work. I think we must warn every discourteous member to be polite.

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Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:15 pm
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Post Re: Grotto
:biggrin:

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Last edited by Therese on Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:27 pm
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Post Re: Grotto
Don't go, Therese. I have to admit your posts are a bit unpleasing, otherwise members would not mention your attitude. But nobody leaves this forum because of a bit of argument.

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Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:34 pm
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Post Re: Grotto
:queen:

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Last edited by Therese on Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:40 pm
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Post Re: Grotto
Dear all,

I do wish you would return to a discussion of the Grotto and Trianon, but it would seem the time for such wishes has past.

I am at something of a loss to see where any hurt feelings might have occurred here. I see that Lilly mentioned a 'tryst' (I will not quote blocks of text, it is all here for anyone to read). I see that Therese interpreted that in a particular way and made a comment indicative of that asking what was meant by Tryst and offering her interpretation of it. I see that Lilly replied and the question was resolved. From that point I see and escalation of the matter above and beyond the initial problem of interpretation one sees on forums from time to time.

I suggest to all of you that you before you hit the reply button that you take a deep breath, that you re-read the passages that have caused you to jump so quickly to respond and examine them for an alternative meaning. As Fleur has commented, it is in all our best interests to try and let those times where we read something that causes a moment of pique pass us by without engaging in a public spat. If you still feel you must comment, ask for clarification from the original writer. If you are asked for clarification remember that you are posting text to an online site and that you meaning is not always readily understood even if you think what you wrote was quite clear. Please reply politely (as Lilly did). This should be an end to it. You may disagree with the clarification, in which case a polite discussion of the matter may continue at all times focussed on the point which is in contention and not on the writing style or tone, previous opinions, personal attitude or history of the writer.

Please do not comment on a matter if it has already been resolved. Do join the conversation, present your point of view if something related to the topic being debated, but do so courteously, regardless of the tone you think you see in the writing of others. Do not address the personal contribution of someone else by reference to their person but do so by reference to the matters and opinions that they have raised. If at any time you are worried by someone's tone or you believe that the discussion has descended to a point where it has become personal and is no longer about the topic on the forum (in this case, the Grotto) contact the topic moderator or contact me immediately. It is our job to step in when the forum rules are broken. Then hold your fire and wait for the moderator to contact you or to step in. At all times please try to remain on topic.

Therese I am very sorry to see you leave the forum. I will not ask you to remain at a place where you feel uncomfortable. I wish you all the best in your endeavours, and you are welcome here at any time should you wish to return.

Now, the topic at hand is the Grotto, please return to it.

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Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:10 am
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Post Re: Grotto
I followed a link at the teatrianon which went to another forum that has some beautiful photos of the grotto and the gardens, here

http://maria-antonia.justgoo.com/versai ... =la+grotte


Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:17 pm
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Post Re: Grotto
I am sorry to see you go on an intellectual level Thérèse, because you quite obviously have read and know a lot about the Queen. However your replies were often ascerbic and moralizing, so I personally won't miss that side.

Up to others here to read more and fill the gap, and raise the general level of this forum to what it was when I first started posting here.

As for the grotto, I was sitting in it yesterday afternoon. After the initial few seconds where one is obliged to grope around to find the stone bench, one soon gets used to the semi obscurity. I sat myself at the exact spot where the Queen must have sat, as she had a view through the small gap in the wall where she could see anyone arrive. Indeed alone in that strange little grotto one soon feels that any arrival is like an intrusion: the solitude one senses becomes like a protection from the world outside, especially as any arrival cannot see you at first so you are obliged to make a noise to let them know you're there. As I sat there,a strange comparison came to mind....just how much this humid grotto ressembled a prison cell, and the Queen must have had a thought for it when first entering her cell in the Conciergerie. And what a strange place to seek out: it shows an interesting melancolic side of the Queen, any person choosing to stay there for any space of time must have a morbid need of solitude, but not the sort one finds in nature or walking through woods for example, a quite different type, almost a dark place for dark thoughts....

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Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:15 am
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Post Re: Grotto
To me the sarcasm from Therese was obvious and it ´s sad. Some people think they have monopoly of the truth of history while we in fact don´t know. A painting, a document, a diary, an eye-witnees what do these things prove? From a mathematical point of view....nothing! They only point to probabilities. Same thing with MA and Axel von Fersen, what we know/have is only circumstantial evidence. Let me give you an example. We "know" up to maybe 99 % probability that Louis XVI and MA held a lavished party to the honour of the Swedish king Gustav III on Midsummer´s Day 1784. When exactly did this took place? Gustav III wrote a letter the day after the party dated June 21 1784. We assume that he has dated the letter correctly but we can´t be sure up to 100 %. Why? First of all we were not there and secondly forensic evidence is not accurate up to 100 % when is comes to an ink analysis so that the forsensics can pin point an exact date, but with the help of other sources we can narrow a certain event down. Eye-witnesses at the party had said and as I understand written that MA´s attention was directed towards Axel von Fersen. Gustav III wrote in his letter that he was alone with Louis XVI for three hours on Midsummer´s Day. Gustav III also wrote that MA didn´t want to join him, her husband Louis XVI and the other guests at the dinner so what did she do? She called the night but in a very pleasant manner according to Gustav III. Did she go to bed? We don´t know. Did she go out to the English Garden....or....did she sneak out to the grotto for a tryst with Axel von Fersen? My point is: WE DON´T KNOW. We just sit here and speculate, but we can try to home in on probabilities. I believe that secret trysts of those days were common. Mark my words: I say that I believe, not that I know. I urged every member to study the scientific tools of history as a science.
/Thorleif Nilsson


Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:41 am
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Post Re: Grotto
You are so right, Baron. The best way to come to know the Queen is walking on her steps. Her solitude at the Grotto couldn't be that sad seclusion. She was always in her element, she had so many beloved relatives and friends, so sometimes she claimed to be alone. She needed this privacy, but she loved to share it with her children. She teached her children looking around in thier enviormentt, sitting in the nature, thinking alone. (Nowadays youth also need to calm down a bit- I envy villagers situation, they have the chance to be balanced in their habitat.)

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Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:54 am
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Post Re: Grotto
Thorleif Nilsson wrote:
Did she go to bed? We don´t know. Did she go out to the English Garden....or....did she sneak out to the grotto for a tryst with Axel von Fersen? My point is: WE DON´T KNOW. We just sit here and speculate, but we can try to home in on probabilities. I believe that secret trysts of those days were common. Mark my words: I say that I believe, not that I know. I urged every member to study the scientific tools of history as a science.
/Thorleif Nilsson


Yes, history is beautiful because we don't know the exact truth. Everybody has the right to explicate his opinion, however it is a riddle that who has the right answer.
This event you mentioned is a good example I think. It is timely now- yesterday was the anniversary of this garden party. This event is an eternal point of guessing on the realtionship of the queen and Fersen. And, it pass to this topic- in this context, "tryst" gets a special notability.

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Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:12 am
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Post Re: Grotto
baron de batz wrote:
As I sat there,a strange comparison came to mind....just how much this humid grotto ressembled a prison cell, and the Queen must have had a thought for it when first entering her cell in the Conciergerie.


This is what I love about this forum - the thoughts provoked by the contributions of you all! I had not even thought of this resembelence, but you are so right! How disheartening of a feeling she must have had upon entering that horrible cell.


[quote="Thorleif Nilsson"]Did she go to bed? We don´t know. Did she go out to the English Garden....or....did she sneak out to the grotto for a tryst with Axel von Fersen? My point is: WE DON´T KNOW. We just sit here and speculate, but we can try to home in on probabilities. I believe that secret trysts of those days were common. Mark my words: I say that I believe, not that I know. I urged every member to study the scientific tools of history as a science.

Thanks, this brings the discussion to my original question of the purpose of this little spot. I appreciate your thoughts as this was the avenue I had hoped for this discussion to pursue. I'm in total agreement with you! We do not know.


Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:33 pm
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Post Re: Grotto
I don't agree with you Anouk that the grotto couldn't be that sad seclusion...I don't know whether you've ever been in it, but its' not an inviting place. I think this wish to be alone in that grotto shows up something about the Queen's character at that time...a deep seated sadness and resignation and a need to be alone. She had already had a number of disillusions by that time after all: lost children, unhappy marriage, hated by her subjects, impossibility to be with the man she loved.

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Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:11 pm
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Post Re: Grotto
In the event, you may be right! For a sort of reason -I don't know why- I thought of a younger, happier Marie Antoinette visiting the Grotto. When I see the Gardens, I always think of her reign's golden age. Her happy years. In her later life, she would went there to mollify (or subsist) her sadness, of course. Thanks for reminding me.

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Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:05 pm
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Post Re: Grotto
I would feel more comfortable if we did not comment on Adrienne's post, as she has asked us not to. Furthermore, I feel greatly saddened that Therese has chosen to leave, as she was always very kind towards me, I respect her and will miss her posts. Remember that our feelings and presence cannot be displayed on a website, they are nothing but typed script on a screen. It would be different were it a hand written letter, would it not?

The subject of a tryst is, and will always remain a controversy with members here, due to their personal closeness they feel towards the Queen. If Therese felt it necessary to defend MA in whatever way, then I applaud her for standing up for her beliefs. However, I do NOT condone fighting on this forum, if you remember the arguments I've been drawn into...

If the posts are clear and sincere, then we may avoid situations like this.
Refer to this if you should get upset again.
http://forum.marie-antoinette.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1296

I was asked to comment, and I did.

Return to the discussion, please.


Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:21 pm
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