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 Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant? 
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Certainly Baron, It was from a french site..(sorry I do not have the link, but I had saved this part) Ambassador Creutz goes on to speak of Fersen so I included it......

Creutz, Comte de, Marianne Molander Beyer, ed., La Suède et les lumières: lettres de France d’un ambassadeur à son roi (1771-1783) (Paris, Michel de Maule, 2006), 620 pp., ISBN 2-87623-157-3. An essential new source on the court of Versailles, Franco-Swedish relations, and European diplomacy. Creutz claims on 5 September 1777 that Marie Antoinette had told Madame de Polignac that Louis XVI formerly ‘nul’ has suddenly become ‘a Hercules’. He also states that, under Louis XVI, the Royal Family had never been more popular, nor the court better attended.
* * *
Here is what Creutz wrote: in 1779..only one and a half years really into Louis being a "Hercules"......and evidently this was not a "new romance" by this time
On 10 April 1779, the Swedish Ambassador Creutz, writes to King Gustavus III of Sweden:

“I must confide to Your Majesty that the young Count Fersen is so well received by the Queen that it has given offence to several persons. I admit that I cannot refrain from thinking that she has a fondness for him: I saw signs of this that were too clear to leave any doubt (j’en ai vu des indices trop surs pour en douter). The young Count Fersen’s behavior on this occasion was admirable in its modesty and restraint and especially in his decision to go to America. By leaving, he removed all dangers, but of course wisdom and resolve beyond his years were required to overcome this seduction. The Queen could not take her eyes off him these last few days; as she watched him they filled with tears (La Reine ne pouvait pas le quitter des yeux les derniers jours; en le regardant, ils etaient remplis de larmes). I beg Your Majesty to keep this a secret for her sake and Senator Fersen’s”. :angel11:
* * *
Truthfuly...even without any experience a young woman could tell a "null" and really anything in contrast to that...might seem a "Hercules" Perhaps her mistake was to confide this to her...("rather experienced") best friend. I am really hoping this is not the case..... :angel11:

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Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:12 pm
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Thanks for the explanation. Did she use the word "nul" in French? Which is used now to describe a person who is useless, or did she say the experience was null? I somehow doubt the veracity of the Comte's words...this seems quite out of keeping with the Queen's nature, as she was quite reserved about such things. But maybe not...finally...with her friend Yolande? We'll never know...

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Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:44 pm
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
"Nul" seems to me very modern slang - a bit like Dolly Madison saying that President Madison was "lame" (in a character sense).

Ca cloche. To my ear anyway.

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Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:28 pm
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
True, it seems so...however I must admit to have been surprized more than once to discover so-called modern day slang expressions in 18th century texts, and to see that their origins went far back...can't remember examples offhand so please don't ask me to quote! I should always write everything down!

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Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:55 pm
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
i am waiting for a reply that conclude the thread to a point. Because till now there is no reply which can get through it.


Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:11 am
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?

The logical answer is this - because they were not having sex. As I stated in an earlier post, once the marriage was consumated, Marie Antoinette did become pregnant within a short period of time.


Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:41 pm
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
There is convincing evidence of a condition which caused a physical impediment to the sex act and a surgery following Joseph's visit to Versailles. The condition has been mentioned in an earlier post and was allegedly phimosis which causes pain when the foreskin is pulled back in an erection. Hope this medical information isn't offensive to anyone here--at any rate it's reported Louis :help: submitted to the knife and shortly MA reported to her Mother that her marriage had been fully consummated and more completely the second time.


Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:34 am
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
I don't believe Louis ever had any such operation. Medical examinations showed him to be normal. Quite frankly what do we know about the exact nature of their relations? Was anyone in bed with them to see? If we are to believe for example the obsessively exhaustive studies of the "Girault de Coursac" MA and Louis probably made love a number of times during those seven years and MA may even have had more than one miscarriage. Which puts the visit of Joseph into a completely different light. Was it not more of a question of MA refusing herself to her young husband or making life impossible for him in bed? Was she not secretly very afraid of pregnancy as the factor that would tie her to Versailles and France for life and put an end to her youthful enjoyment? Remember their sexual relations were a state affair and therefore there was some duelling going on between the pro Austrian and the French factions at court, each wanting to blame the other for the absence of a royal baby. It was a reason for MA to be put aside and there was always the threat of a royal mistress, as Kings before her had systematically taken. For me that's where Ernestine comes into the picture: Louis must prove that the problem doesn't stem from him....

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:22 pm
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Baron,
I theorize as did Castelot' that both parties practiced avoidance of the marital responsibilities after years of frustrating failure. Joseph reported that LXVI could achieve an erection and introduce it but neither party made any movement before withdrawal. Phimosis has individual variances but could have interferred with the movement required to complete coitus.

Apparently there was a small operation and I believe Louis was in the saddle again (hunt)
:lol: the next day or shortly afterward. Within months MA was able to announce to her anxious mother the deed had been completely achieved more than once and that she was expecting a glorious event.

There must be a connection between Joseph's talk with Louis, a diagnosis (sounds like a mini circumsion or additional cut), a surgical procedure, coitus and pregnancy after years of nothing.
Susana


Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:06 am
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
I doubt Louis had any operation. I believe Marie Antoinette didn't become pregnant right away because Louis refused to consummate the marriage. He simply would not do it. At the same time, who could blame him? He was a child, as was his wife at the time of their marriage and they were complete strangers to each other.


Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:07 pm
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
I highly doubt Louis ever needed or had any operation. I believe the lack of activity in the bedroom was all psychological - shyness, fear, ect. from both Louis and Marie. Perhaps there were even more deep-rooted issues that we're unaware of? I would think that the intense pressure to consummate the marriage would motivate even the most timid of souls, but apparently that wasn't the case.


Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:24 am
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Woodland Nymph wrote:
I highly doubt Louis ever needed or had any operation. I believe the lack of activity in the bedroom was all psychological - shyness, fear, ect. from both Louis and Marie. Perhaps there were even more deep-rooted issues that we're unaware of? I would think that the intense pressure to consummate the marriage would motivate even the most timid of souls, but apparently that wasn't the case.


I agree.

Bertière makes out that Louis had the same problem his father faced with his first wife, Marie-Thérèse Raphaelle of Spain, i.e narrowness of passage.

I personnally think Bertière is wrong to argue that there was any kind of physical impediment on Marie-Antoinette's behalf. It is all a matter of desire or lack of thereof. As a result, sexual intercourses turned out to be a painful ordeal for the Queen. The truth is that shuned sexual intercourses with her husband, whence her very hectic nighlife !)))



Back then men were not taught how to give pleasure to their wives in bed -such considerations were shrugged off. Their sexual education was brutal. Sexual pleasure was for their mistresses (and I even doubt there were a lot of good lovers), but their wives' role was to have children, not to have fun in bed.

For centuries, generations of women grew utterly disgusted with sex because of a traumatizing first time. Those were the days when a mother would provide her daughter with vaseline on her wedding day -without explaining to her what to expect in bed... They were literally raped. It is the whole story of Une vie, by Maupassant -which I did not read by the way ha ha ha !

I have a read that a lot of women (allegedly most of them) such as Anna of Austria, Madame de Montespan, Madame de Pompadour or even Marie-Antoinette were said to be "frigid". But there are no firgid women, there are only clumsy lovers. There is no wonder women did not miss sex at all, and were but too happy to keep away from it as soon as they had fullfilled their duties, which Marie-Antoinette did after Sophie's birth -in addition, contraception boiled down to the natural methods, save for the "condoms" which were not used in a marital context.

This is what happened to Marie-Antoinette's sister, Maria-Carolina. Eugénia de Montijo and Elisabeth of Austria are other notorious examples. Nowadays women just do not realize how fortunate they are.

To me, that is all there is to it.

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Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:57 am
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
I agree wholeheartedly with you both.....

The problem there was clearly a lack of arousal...and therefore natural lubrication, (sorry to put it bluntly girls!)) as that makes matters much easier! :)

I doubt if Louis ever had any such operation too, even if MA seems to refer to something in a letter to Marie Thérèse.

As for MA she must have been a thoroughly desirable woman, at least once she matured (not upon her arrival in Versailles). We know for example that she had large full breasts and most men like that! I am quite sure the only impediment on her side was that she found Louis a bit of a turn off!

And such basic physical problems became matters of great importance for the State! And a source of great tension!

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Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:18 am
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
While Marie-Antoinette was able to convey "the illusion of beauty" as Fraser put it many reports emphasize she was far from being a very attractive woman. Of course nobody said that outright !

Besenval wrote that Marie-Antoinette thanks to her grace could beat "other women better endowed by nature". I really think that these statements, and by and large the writing of that time, must never be taken at face value but put back into their contexts. One must not forget the instictive awe a Queen of France would inspire, all the more that she was a martyr, and the inner sense of diplomacy those people were endowed with.

Louis XVI boasted about her elegance and the way she danced, as men always do when talking about their mistresses / wives. And this is all the truer when your wife happens to be an archduchess and Queen of France.
Louis XVI was surrounded by diplomats who expected him at least to look as if he found his wife attractive. Henri IV made a similar statement about Maria di Medici as well : he said he would have spent all his money to have her as his mistress had she not been his wife !


Whatever the Queen's appearance, attraction and desire require so much more than that.

Marie-Antoinette was easily given to behaving agressivly and scornfully vis à vis Louis XVI. They had no common interests whatsoever : she despised his way of life, he deemed her harebrained. He looked down on Marie-Antoinette's rather flamboyant lifestyle, although he hardly dared to take her to task.

The least that can be said is that he was not to instistant with his wife when it came to having sex, both at the beginning of their marriage and at the end when she later turned down any sexual intercourse with him. Even in admitting that he was not fond of sex, it hardly tallies with the behaviour of a man who finds his wife "thouroughly attractive". In fact I think they was a blantant lack of attraction on both sides.

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Last edited by Ludy on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:36 am
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Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Well that's another confident post with some truth in it!

I think that MA was an attractive woman, but not beautiful. I don't think that Louis was so indifferent to her, in fact I think he was quite smitten with her and was hurt by her lack of interest in him. But then he screwed up from the very beginning by showing little or no interest in bed with her, and what woman forgives that, however young?!

The Girault de Corsac, however anti Marie Antoinette they clearly were, put forward some undeniable facts such as the humiliation Louis was forced to endure when he crossed the Oeil de Boeuf to find the Queen's bedroom door locked to him, and had to turn around and go back again. He soon found a more private route for joining her after that, once allowed back in! By the time Joseph arrived, I think that things were mounting to boiling point between the two of them!

As far as MA's intellect and charms are concerned, which you do not value too highly, I think that she was fairly irresistable to many men, and not just because she was Queen. After all other Queens before her left no trace on men at court! Her intellect is quite simply proven by her correspondence and what we know of her wit and conversation. However I grant she wasn't academic.

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Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:04 pm
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