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 What was this 'petit' operation'? 
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
baron de batz wrote:
I have indeed read Mme Bertière's book.

However that may well be one thing she's wrong about! :wink:


Oh I think she was right on the mark.

And darling, one does not have to be a man to "know" how men are. All one has to do in live with one, such as in marriage. :wink:

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:49 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:49 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
Thérèse wrote:

And darling, one does not have to be a man to "know" how men are. All one has to do in live with one, such as in marriage.

Oh I tried that!!

Gave me terrible indigestion and the most awful financial hangover! :lol:

Given the choice again, I'd opt for the Boudoir this time! :wink:

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:54 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
baron de batz wrote:
Thérèse wrote:

And darling, one does not have to be a man to "know" how men are. All one has to do in live with one, such as in marriage.

Oh I tried that!!

Gave me terrible indigestion and the most awful financial hangover! :lol:

Given the choice again, I'd opt for the Boudoir this time! :wink:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:57 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
My God Marija where did you spring from!?

What's happened to this forum...all the old friends are back!! :)

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:59 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
Therese wrote:
baron de batz wrote:
So masturbation is still considered to be a sin by Catholics?!

How ridiculous! :)


My dear Baron, I fear you are revealing to much about yourself. :o



ahahhaahahah how amazing you are ahahah :angel1:


Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:14 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
baron de batz wrote:
My God Marija where did you spring from!?

What's happened to this forum...all the old friends are back!! :)



what 's happening? Princess is here so everybody wants to meet her :angel1: eheheh


Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:16 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
Wow, forum is fizzing :) It's nice to see you're back Marija!

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Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:55 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
Louis XVI had wet dreams, he admitted it to Joseph who mentions it in his letter, how he had wet dreams but couldn't perform the intercourse fully with Marie Antoinette. He would penetrate but wouldn't be able to continue from then. God, what this topic turned into! :lol:

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:03 am
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
And not just men or so I've "heard"...! :wink:

I don't believe that Louis ejaculated outside MA whilst trying to penetrate...that sort of thing just doesn't happen except in the most severe case of premature ejaculation. Sorry to be so graphic, but we have to call a spade a spade here, and I think that this whole businesss of "nocturnal pollutions" was an essential element in their problems. Zweig for example sees it as a key question. One has to ask the question: "Where did Joseph II get all this explicit information?" Can one honestly imagine the King of France opening up in this way to his brother in law who he has met for the first time? Telling him that "he puts it in, wiggles it around a bit and pulls out without coming?!" Come on! He would make himself ridiculous! :lol: The Girault de Coursac who studied this in depth are of the same opinion in their book on the royal couple.

Maybe MA told him this? It would be surprizing, knowing how prudish she was:! The maids may have been the source of the information regarding the "nocturnal pollutions", as they change the sheets, but that cannot give him any certainty about the cause of those stains. For me it seems highly likely that all that comes out of the most profound lack of compatibility in bed. What no doubt did change things is that the veiled threats made by her brother inspired MA to encourage her husband in bed....and I believe that for most men with some degree of sensitivity a woman's attitude in bed is a key factor to success. Louis XVI wasn't the kind to "force the issue".

For anyone who cannot follow all this then you have to read first the explicit letter of MA's brother Joseph II to Leopold, the Grand Duke of Tuscany.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:51 am
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
baron de batz wrote:
Telling him that "he puts it in, wiggles it around a bit and pulls out without coming?!"


Based on Joseph's report I do believe that was actually the case! :oops: And I think to blame is the inexperience of both of them. Which is nothing new as it happened to some young royal couple's as well at the time. But how come it took him so long? Apparently Joseph II, who was more experienced, helped with some practical advices. :lol: Zweig supports the theory of an operation, but I would really like to know, knowing the medicine of the time, how did they manage to perform such a delicate operation successfully, without anyone's knowledge? Now sex is everywhere so it seems too extraordinary, but I don't think it is that weird that two young virgins had such sexual problems, it is only unusual that it took them that long.

I think that, even if shy, Louis XVI was such a warm and kind person that he could have discussed with his brother in low such matters if he was encouraged with an honest wish to help. The best is if we manage to find a copy of Joseph's letter as that is such an important source here.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:58 am
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
There is no problem to produce that letter. I just have to translate it first.

I cannot agree with you that the King of France would have opened up like that on such private matters to his brother in law. And also that the grandson of one of the most debauched Kings ever known should not have been aware of what it takes to make babies! The Royal Couple was also besieged by erotic pamphlets , calling Louis a "mauvais fouteur" and saying he didn't know what it was for!!

I am much more tempted to follow the line of the Girault de Coursac on this matter, who are of the opinion that all this was part of the infighting between the French and Austrian factions at Court, neither of which wanted to see the blame attributed to them for the failure to produce an heir. These problems in bed were after all a grave affair of state! Why else did Joseph II make that journey?! We had seen this infighting before over the disgrace of Choiseul, the architect of the Franco-Austrian alliance, who Louis XVI had succeeded in banishing to his private lands. Therefore Joseph II's letter to Leopold was perhaps an intentional smokescreen to defend his sister's reputation, under attack from the French court.

I think that the Queen probably rejected Louis, at least partly, during lovemaking. And he finished off things on his own.... Then Joseph II gave her a good talking to and frightened her into more submissiveness in bed and bingo! I would go even further as to suggest that the problem become so serious that Louis XVI was encouraged to prove that the problem did not lie with him, which resulted in the birth of Ernestine Lambriquet. How else can one explain the appearance of her name, the daughter of a maid, on the register of the Children of France, reserved for royal offspring. Born before Madame Royale, she was educated alongside her, and given the same privileges as well as being accepted by the Queen like her own daughter?

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:19 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
baron de batz wrote:

I cannot agree with you that the King of France would have opened up like that on such private matters to his brother in law. And also that the grandson of one of the most debauched Kings ever known should not have been aware of what it takes to make babies! The Royal Couple was also besieged by erotic pamphlets , calling Louis a "mauvais fouteur" and saying he didn't know what it was for!!

I am much more tempted to follow the line of the Girault de Coursac on this matter, who are of the opinion that all this was part of the infighting between the French and Austrian factions at Court, neither of which wanted to see the blame attributed to them for the failure to produce an heir.


Baron, I have to totally agree with you on those points ( quoted above) although not on the Ernestine story.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:12 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
Marija Vera wrote:
Louis XVI had wet dreams, he admitted it to Joseph who mentions it in his letter, how he had wet dreams but couldn't perform the intercourse fully with Marie Antoinette. He would penetrate but wouldn't be able to continue from then. God, what this topic turned into! :lol:


I have read this also.

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Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:27 pm
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Post Re: What was this 'petit' operation'?
I have checked the moderator log and discovered that Therese deleted not only my post, but Marija's reply. Why?


Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:44 pm
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