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 we need a psychiatrist 
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Comte/Comtesse
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Post we need a psychiatrist
Is there someone who have psychiatrist studies?
I really would like to know how does it grow an adolescent female mind when the girl is born in Versailles, kindnapped with her family from her home by many people never seen , with the mother who is worried just for the male son, a sweet but weak father, with all friends aways, when she and her family escapes, is arrested, comes back and imprisoned in a old tower.
When her father is killed, her mother becomes crazy for the sorrow of the lost of the male son, the mother herself is killed and the girl is left alone, girl not child, among soldats who can enter in her jail during the night.
How do you think this terrible hours can mark a adolescent female mind? :shifty:


I appreciate most of all girls' opinion, men just not understand, I think, the feeling of a girl among boys, but you can try! :angel1:


Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:19 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
We know from modern day cases that children who are subjected to the kinds of horrors and cruelty that the royal children endured suffer nearly irreparable damage. All human beings have a point where the spirit can be broken. Some people have a strong character and can resist this process longer than others. You might hold out a week under circumstances that someone else might last a month under. Children of the ages the Royal children were at the time - have not lived long enough to have formed a strong character and are mentally broken much more easily than (most) adults.
(An interesting side note - the Revolutionaries were aiming to break Marie-Antoinette at her trial. They were quite surprised to see her hold her own against all those men! A real moment of triumph for MA - in a situation where her behavior was the only control she had.) Louis XVI became a broken man and King.

Children, most of the time, learn to be compliant towards their captors - it is a mechanism that allows them to cope - Louis-Charles was so young and impressionable that it didn’t take long to have him acting like a revolutionary once he was removed from his mother. It would almost be understandable if Marie-Therese was in this same traumatized condition when she found herself all alone in the Temple after Madame Elisabeth was removed. I believe that Marie-Therese was further abused while alone in captivity - most likely being raped. There was nothing she could do about her situation. How hopeless that must have felt.

I’m not a psychiatrist, but if I think about seeing (or my children seeing!) bloody heads on pikes and screaming threatening mobs at 6-7 and 11-12 years old, it gives me chills. Witnessing these incidents alone is much more than most of us will ever know. The fear and sight of all that blood and hatred of the people had to have kept them in constant alternating states of fear, anxiety and nervousness. The amount of damage to the human spirit of these unfortunate children is incomprehensible. It is no wonder Marie-Therese carried a deep sadness with her for the rest of her life. Today, a psychiatrist might say she suffered from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.


Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:43 am
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
I too believe that MT was most probably raped in the Temple prison. After all her aunt senses the possibility by warning her that she should never be caught half undressed/unprepared by her guards. By raping her they were "getting a piece' of MA after all.

That is why I believe in the substitution theory. I don't think that the young MT would have been in any state to face court life in Vienna after that.

I bought a book from my antiques market on Saturday written in 1817. It is on the short life of Louis XVII and mentions MT a lot as well of course. In the preface there are 2 engravings, one after a portrait by Kucharsky of Louis XVII, the other of MT painted in Vienna in 1817. I recently bought an engraving of MT from 1795, just before her departure from the Temple. It is not by the same artist, both girls have curly locks, but the nose is different as are the features. Ernestine remember was the same age as MT.....

As for this book, it is pretty interesting because when the author talks of characters like MT or Madame de Tourzel, or Jarjayes or Hue, he talks of contemporaries! I will keep you posted of any scoops. It is the oldest book in my possession. Quite a find!

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Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:41 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
thanks a lot for answers ,so interesting :cat:


Last edited by princesse on Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:31 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
princesse wrote:
baron de batz wrote:
I too believe that MT was most probably raped in the Temple prison. After all her aunt senses the possibility by warning her that she should never be caught half undressed/unprepared by her guards. By raping her they were "getting a piece' of MA after all.

That is why I believe in the substitution theory. I don't think that the young MT would have been in any state to face court life in Vienna after that.

I bought a book from my antiques market on Saturday written in 1817. It is on the short life of Louis XVII and mentions MT a lot as well of course. In the preface there are 2 engravings, one after a portrait by Kucharsky of Louis XVII, the other of MT painted in Vienna in 1817. I recently bought an engraving of MT from 1795, just before her departure from the Temple. It is not by the same artist, both girls have curly locks, but the nose is different as are the features. Ernestine remember was the same age as MT.....

As for this book, it is pretty interesting because when the author talks of characters like MT or Madame de Tourzel, or Jarjayes or Hue, he talks of contemporaries! I will keep you posted of any scoops. It is the oldest book in my possession. Quite a find!



how interesting book!
Well, I suppose that people have a sort of respect about noble birth person.
So, I think that, of course nobody will never know, MT was not raped, but lived in a unbelivable situation of fear, considering also the way she lived in Versailles, where nobody could see or speak to her without her or her parents' permission.
In the mentality of the times a woman can never be alone with men, in this case she would be compromised.
Just this fact would be a shock for MT.
Knowing that no parents ( killed) or not friend could help her in case of dangerous, surely was horrible for her.
But I don't think she wa raped, the same for last Tzar's daughters, even if with their parents they shuold be, but a person with noble birth is always, most of all in ancient times, seen as a sort of supernatural thing.
That's what I think, just my opinion :angel1:


Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:33 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
princesse wrote:
I suppose that people have a sort of respect about noble birth person.

princesse wrote:
but a person with noble birth is always, most of all in ancient times, seen as a sort of supernatural thing.


Do you think the Revolutionaries had any respect for Royalty or Nobility?

Rape is never about sex - it is about power, control, and the ultimate humiliation of a woman.

Drunk men coming into Marie-Threse's room at all hours of the night.....


Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:39 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
Lilly wrote:
princesse wrote:
I suppose that people have a sort of respect about noble birth person.

princesse wrote:
but a person with noble birth is always, most of all in ancient times, seen as a sort of supernatural thing.


Do you think the Revolutionaries had any respect for Royalty or Nobility?

Rape is never about sex - it is about power, control, and the ultimate humiliation of a woman.

Drunk men coming into Marie-Threse's room at all hours of the night.....



I think we have to do some efforts to recreate in our mind ancient men's way of thinking.
They grew with the idea that royalty is a God's decision, He choosed among the human being the most suitable to do His will.
Since there were no photography, men could see royal family'faces just in portraits, as God's ones in the church.
When a person who grows up with this sort of idea met a king, a king's daughter or other member of royal family I think a sort of shock incurred in his mind, he has in front of him a person sent by God on the earth.
This was the way of thinking in that times.
Of course many of them hated royal family, but there was still a line among normal people and king, if not, why nobody killed them during the captivity from Versailles to Paris? A king can not be killed as a normal person, this is my opinion. :angel1:


Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:09 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
The Revolution was all about descralization of royalty and nobility.

The Princesse de Lamballe, blood related to the Royal family and present at the high table for the Royal wedding of MA with Louis XVI, was not just killed, she was massacred and desecrated as a symbol, her private parts being the object of particular attention.

The pamplets, the libellous and lecherous literature surrounding the Queen, the attacks at the Tuileries where the Royal couple was manhandled and insulted, all these were the precursors to the final destitution of this august family.

I consider that the guards, notorious for their drunken behaviour, would not have hesitated for long in front of the prospect of a young princess abandoned in her cell. The only thing which might have stopped them was the fear of being caught. As for any reverence they may have felt for what she represented , that feeling had long been crushed and trodden underfoot by the Revolution and clever manipulators like the Père Duchèsne, who often used animal imagery in his populist newspaper to debase the Royal family to the lowest possible form. MT, the offspring of a whorish lesbian and a drunk, was no doubt considered fair game.

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Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:32 am
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
Absolutely! I would even go as far as suggesting that Madame Elisabeth and Marie-Antoinette may also have been raped. I didn't say they were, I am saying it is possible they may have been.

princesse wrote:
ancient men's way of thinking.
princesse wrote:
most of all in ancient times,


I'm not understanding these references to the ancients...
Surely you are not confusing ancient times for France in the 1790's?


Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:58 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
No I don't think so. The context was different. The Queen was seen as a potental valuable asset right up unitl her death, as a possible exchange for money. No guard would have dared.

Mme Elizabeth was almost always with Mme Royale Its' not impossible but highly unlikely I think.

What is indeed so frightening with the case of Mme Royale is her isolation, and the fact that so little is written or spoken about her in the time when she is the sole surviving prisoner. She was easy meat and seemingly forgotten! And there is that letter written by some Duchesse referring to the "delicate" state in which the Princess finds herself, in other words that the Princess may have been pregnant or have miscarried. Its' all conjecture.

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:12 am
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
We can agree to differing opinions on this matter. It was something I read that led to thinking this a possibility for Madame Elisabeth - I'll try to find it. I wish that I had the confidence of others that these thugs and killers would not have committed this crime against these women. Perhaps life has jaded me - I do not put anything past what a gang of angry men will do. Especially in view of the treatment of the children, Princess Lamballe and so many others. The Revolutionaries were regularly raping women and girls before they were guillotined. I just find it hard to believe that the woman whom all the anger was directed (MA) was spared this degradation. But we shall never know the truth.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:09 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
Lilly wrote:
The Revolutionaries were regularly raping women and girls before they were guillotined.


And not only before... If we take rumours on trust, it happened sometimes that the revolutionaries dishonoured women's body already guillotined... to "check" if the poor girl was virgin. I don't know how authentic can be such rumours but I find them awful.

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:40 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
As sick and twisted as it is, you're correct. One good example is - Mrs. Graham who died in France and the Revolutionaries "defiled" her corpse en route back to England for burial. A definition of defile is to violate one's chastity. Her husband was very distraught over this. So, YES - it did happen.


Madame DuBarry also claimed she was "violated" in a coach on the way to prison.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:09 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
Oh My God! Did it happen to that Mrs Graham who Gainsborough made a beautiful portrait of? Startling.

At the back of mind I remember that something alike happened to poor Charlotte Corday. I'm not sure but somewhere I read that her corpse was "analyzed" in a very ignominious way by the revolutionaries. Mob has the capability to do such shameful things.

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:32 pm
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Post Re: we need a psychiatrist
Your avatar Lilly! Poor little thing!

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Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:35 pm
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