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 Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette? 
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Noble
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
I don't think she hated her, but MA come across as the stricter one. It's said that Marie-Thereses father gave her anything she wanted, in contrast her mother took som things away.
I actually have a friend with the resent family structure, loving father - stricter mother, ofcourse she tends to love her father more.

I am not an expert in 18th century child rearing, but I now alot about victorians, and wven though they were much, much stricter it wasn't really expected for a child to love their parent as we do today, then they were to "love and respect" and only met them for half an hour a day.
I the 1750's Denmark the royal children lived in their own houshold, only meeting their parents one or two hours a day, if the parents had time. Though at the birth of a crownprince in Sweden, 1778, the way of childrearing had changed alot because of a french author (can't recall the name at the moment) . The doctors even encouraged the women to breastfeed.
Since Sweden did everything the french way I am positive that they would've done the same thing with with childrearing.
Not an expert as I said, but children didn't have as close relationships to their parents as we have today.


Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:14 pm
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Royalty
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Ludy - Thanks for the list...I have not read Castelot, but will order a copy of his Marie-Therese bio. Fraser does not back up your "facts".
Perhaps it is simply an issue of different interpretation on our parts.


Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:51 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Ludy wrote:
By the way, I understand that it sounds very shocking (and not very politically correct) that a mother may prefer one of her children, but I do think it does happen on a regular basis



Actually, it is not schocking at all - and it does happen, for whatever reasons. Isn't it amazing how children can grow up in the same household with the same parents, living the same lifestyle, but become such different human beings?


Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:56 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
I do think Fraser says that Madame Royale was stiff and had difficult relationships with her mother, but whatever, I am not a historian. I only rely on my memory, but I think you understand that.

This is certainly a matter of interpretations, because all we say is but interpretations. What I say is the result of my personal understanding and interpretations I have made, reading variety of facts.

It does strike me how different she was with her mother. A lot of contemporaries wondered actually whether she was the actual Madame Royale, after her return from Austria, precisely because she had nothing in common with her mother.

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Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
I apologize if you have taken any offense to my asking for your sources on this information. As you initially said you were stating facts, I didn't realize that you were only relying on memory. Whenever I read something that I've been previously unaware of - I wonder where the information comes from and seek to find it, so that I myself can be better informed.
We all too know that many of these authors will state something as fact, when in reality it isn't. Interpetation is certainly an individual thing as well.
I hate to feel like questioning sources is perceived as confrontational on this forum by some members. It usually makes for a well rounded and lively discussion, which is part of the reason we visit here!


Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:59 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
I don't think that Ludy considered your request as confrontational Lilly.

Its' good to see a discussion here for once.

Personally I don't think that MTC hated her moher at all. As for the person that came back from Austria, well I'm one of those that thinks it wasn't MTC, which might explain her psychological and physiological changes, and her strange attitude towards the memory of MA in certain respects after her return. I think that this person, this graceless Duchesse d'Angoulême, was Ernestine.

As for MTC's comments towards her mother as a child, well that could be only be expected from a child that was brought up quite strictly. MA was obliged to over-compensate by showing an example with her own children in order to counter the constant reproaches of extravagance at Court and lack of compassion for the common mortel. I don't think that one can talk of favouritism towards the dauphin. It was quite simply a fact that the male child, as heir to the throne, was put on a pedestal. MTC was close to her mother in other ways. Nothing of what went on at the Temple, when the family lived like a bourgeois family from Paris, showed that MA had particularly strained relations with her mother. She was close to her Aunt, that is true, but MA had entrusted the care of her daughter to Elizabeth, her "sister" as she calls her in French. We mustn't forget to whom her last letter is addressed.

The other day at my market I stumbled on an original edition from 1817 of the Mémoires of Louis XVII by Mr Eckard. I was interested to note that MTC travels leaves the Temple prison for Austria under the name of "Sophie". We know that death certificate of the Countess of Darkness in Hildburghausen showed exactly the same age as MTC would have had at that time and her name was inscribed as being "Sophie Botta". Another strange coincidence....

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Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:23 am
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Baron, I didn't mean that Ludy took it as confrontational - just a general statement - as it has happens from time to time.
I do not think that Marie-Therese hated her mother - and the idea that she deemed MA partially responsible for her own fate is something that I never ever heard, read or percieved.
Marie-Therese was not quite 11 years old in Oct.1789 .....far too young to understand what exactly was happening and why. All the blood and horror witnessed by her would most likely have had the effect of drawing her and her brother closer to both parents and Elisabeth. Children are dependent upon adults for protection. Male children were prized more than females, but that does not mean that MA loved any of her children any less than the others.
I'm still having some trouble with the whole "Dark Countess" business....


Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:27 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Don't worry Lilly, I did not take it amiss.) I think we are having an interesting discussion.


As regards to what I said about Marie-Thérèse deeming her mother responsible, I really meant to say that she thought she was responsible, and not guilty. She was aware that MA's behaviour opened to wrong interepretations, and was thus very cautious as far as fashion and expenditures were concerned. She notoriously dressed herself with very bad taste, and appeared as a harsh person in public. And this probably was deliberate.


Of course, the whole question is whether or not she was the actual Marie-Thérèse. I think she was, because all that I have read until now about this issue failed to convince me, especially as regards to the reason of such an exchange.

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Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:18 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
What about rape in the Temple rendering her unfit for courtly life, as well as traumatic stress?

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Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:39 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
If you look at your excellent map you provided, you will see the Palais du Grand Prieuré to the right. That is the entrance where the Royal family would have entered the Temple enclave on the 13th august and where they would have left through, Louis XVI for his trial and execution, MA to the Conciergerie and MTC to Vienna or Huningue and Hildburghausen. Behind it are la Petite Tour and the adjoining massive 50 metre high Grande Tour, which so frightened MA when she would visit her brother in law for dinner. To the left and behind the Towers is the large Rotonde, a place where merchants traded. In the middle the Church.

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Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:56 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
I am re-posting the picture here:


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Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:16 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Thanks Baron for that information - as I said, I was surprised to see that the Temple was enclosed as it was. I knew about the Knights Templar but had never been aware the this was a sort of walled city within the city. Very interesting! The Grande Tour that so frightened MA, I have read many times that she had asked her brother-in-law to demolish. How sick it must have made her on the realization she'd be imprisoned there.

baron de batz wrote:
What about rape in the Temple rendering her unfit for courtly life, as well as traumatic stress?


I do believe MTC was raped in the Temple. These are good arguments for the switch. What if MTC was pregnant? It is a possibility. A switch for this or reasons such as traumatic stress are very possible. Other things too, such as how different she appears in some portraits. I thought she was a beautiful child, but not so much as older images of her show. But the one thought to be MTC carried a saddness with her throughout her life, she obviously didn't have a sex life and never got close to a man in this way. (I know she was married to Angouleme-but they were not close in this manner). A raped girl may completely shy away from sex forever.
There are several good arguements on both sides involving two switched girls and a Dark Countess. I have not enough knowledge to have figured out which side of this mystery I'm on. Hmmmmm..... more info please.


Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:58 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
I would not claim to be an expert on this topic, and I should read up more on it, but I have always felt that the substitution theory was raised as a way of explaining MTC's personality. They found it hard to believe that the daughter of the vivacious and beautiful Marie Antoinette was so withdrawn, plainer in appearance and less pleasure seeking. So the possibility that this wasn't MTC....

However, I am of the opinion that she simply was deeply affected by post-traumatic stress, had a personality more aligned to her father and would of consciously tried to not make herself open to the criticism that so damaged her mother by dressing brightly and spending well.

This, of course, is my simple impression and I guess none of us will never know. It is fun to discuss, though!

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Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:53 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Lilly wrote:
such as how different she appears in some portraits. I thought she was a beautiful child, but not so much as older images of her show.


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Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:17 am
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
and this.....


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Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:18 am
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