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 Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette? 
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
But I was talking about competition before the Temple.

I mean, even as far as politics were concerned, Elisabeth and Marie-Antoinette were not on the same wavelength, were they ? Elisabeth, in the Tuileries, was far closer to the Emigrés, whereas Marie-Antoinette thought they were undermining Louis XVI's efforts to pacify the kingdom. Yes, I think she yearned to garner some influence over her brother.


I think that Elisabeth was an energetic young woman and did not settle for her role as Louis XVI's sister. After all, she did give up any prospect to get married or enter a covent and accepted to stay at the Court. She was also quite close to her aunts, wasn't she ?


I do not think Elisabeth and Marie-Antoinette grew very close until the Temple.

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Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:54 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Lilly wrote:
Can you specifically source what you say? "I think Bertiere says it" "I think Bordonove must have stated it" is way too vague. Where are these things stated? What book, what pages?
Otherwise, it is an opinion - with nothing to back it up.

Ludy wrote:
Not to mention MTC behaviour towards her mother when she became Duchesse of Angoulème.

Obviously, her mother was dead - what of her behavior?


I mean that she was accused of not honouring her parents' memory in an appropriate way, especially as far as her mother were concerned -which sparked off the debate on her identity. Of course, this can be explained in various ways, namely post traumatic stress, so on.

Once again, I am not a Historian. You can glance at Bertière's book, chapter "children" and you'll find. Why should I be the only one to provide sources ? You don't ask other users to do so. I don't learn books by heart, heaven forbids.

It sounds like everyone must share the same opinion on this forum...

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Last edited by Ludy on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
I thnk that MA was too much of a child psychologist to favour one child over another. All one can say is that the State called for more attention to the male child and even MTC was acutely aware of this as a princess and fulfilled her rôle as a protective sister. If there was any ambiguity in their relations (MA/MTC) then it probably came more from MTC who didn't have an easy character as a young girl, but she mellowed and later missed her mother terribly.

Just to support Ludy for one second, it isn't always easy to quote sources exactly as one doesn't always have these books handy, so this is where we can help each other by using our collective memory. I'm often the same...I clearly remember seeing something written but can't remember where, with all I've read! :)

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Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:59 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
I might have got the wrong end of the stick here. If we're talking about competition between MA and Elizabeth then I tend to agree, even if I wouldn't use the word competition, but rather difference of opinion. Elizabeth clearly supported the cause of the ultras and kept up a correspondence with her exiled uncle Artois. MA and Louis considered this dangerous behaviour and it caused tension at the Temple.

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Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:06 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
[
Ludy wrote:
Once again, I am not a Historian. You can glance at Bertière's book, chapter "children" and you'll find. Why should I be the only one to provide sources ? You don't ask other users to do so. I don't learn books by heart, heaven forbids.


Because I'm trying to determine whether or not these things you claim are verifiable - or if they are your opinion. I have not read such things...if something is being stated as facts, a person should be able to back it up with sources for where this information came from. Opinions and facts are not always the same thing. If this is your opinion, I cannot argue, because that's what you think....and you are entitled to think whatever you like - even if it's not what I think.

How did MA have the time while the family was imprisoned to focus on LC's upbringing more seriously - especially when the child was 4-8 years old?


Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Even what Historians write are their opinions. Yes and what Bertière or Bordonove wrote are but their interpretations... the point of a debate is precesily to confront differing opinions. And I did state my sources, you just have to buy these books and find by yourself. As far as I am concerned, I have stated my opinion and my sources. You did not state yours. So I infer that you just don't accept that someone may disagree with you.

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Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:26 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Ludy wrote:
Even what Historians write are their opinions. Yes and what Bertière or Bordonove wrote are but their interpretations... the point of a debate is precesily to confront differing opinions. And I did state my sources, you just have to buy these books and find by yourself. As far as I am concerned, I have stated my opinion and my sources. You did not state yours. So I infer that you just don't accept that someone may disagree with you.

I do not view this forum as debating and/or confronting....for my part it is more of a friendly discussion. If you've ever read any of my posts, you'd know that I have always agreed to disagree. Ask for any sources or opinions you'd like me to explain and you will get them promptly. At this point I've not been asked for anything.

Lilly wrote:
If this is your opinion, I cannot argue, because that's what you think....and you are entitled to think whatever you like - even if it's not what I think.

Hmm....Looks like I said here that I wouldn't argue with your opinion because you are entitled to it, even if I don't agree with you. What part of this leads you to infer that I "cannot accept" a differing opinion?


Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:28 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
From what I have read about Madame Elisabeth, I have perceived that she may have been a little more aware of the situation in France than Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were. I think that one remark she made was very telling. The last line of Copolla’s movie, when Louis XVI says to MA “Are you admiring your Lime Avenue?” and she says, “I’m saying goodbye.” These words were actually said by Madame Elisabeth.
How did she know they wouldn’t be back? I don’t think the King and Queen realized that when they left Versailles, it was forever. But Madame Elisabeth’s words show she knew.
Perhaps, Madame Elisabeth and MA had differences of opinion, I’m sure they likely did.
What two women always agree? I’d not call it competition. In captivity, having another woman to talk to would have been a blessing to most women. MA, as a mother, would have had some relief in the fact that Madame Elisabeth was there for MTC when MA was moved to the Conciergerie. I think that they probably really grew to love each other tenderly during their imprisonment.


Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:32 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Leaving Versailles could have been a very troubled, scary situation for the royal couple. It is possible that they suspected that there will be no return. They thought over their situation - I doubt they had much hope for getting back to Versailles. It was obvious that the summertime of 1789 and this forced leaving in October unsettled their life for ever. The worst of it was that they didn't see the end of the chain of events... People do not always realize their personal situation for the first time but feel straight off when changes come in an age-long system. MA and Louis must have had evil forebodings.
...It's an other story that they planned all the time how to quit this situation and they tried to catch every chance. It shows that in their life there was hope remained.

Very interesting what Madame Élisabeth said at their departure. Her mental constitution was maybe more responsive and she observed events more sensuously.

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Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:15 am
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Marie-Antoinette was aware that they were to leave Versailles forever, she said it to one of her maid "I have the feeling we will never return, and you know, I am rarely mistaken".

source : J.C Petifils, Louis XVI.

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Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:07 am
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
I dont think so.


Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:09 pm
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Post Re: Did Madame Royale hate Marie Antoinette?
Why don't you think so?

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Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:33 pm
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