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 All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012 
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Post All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
I know its off topic but I want to share this enchanting clip from Youtube. History and nature are my great passions and I thought you might like to watch this wonderful little film. I am reading Lenotre's book yet again about the last days of Marie Antoinette and it is unbelievable that an entire city or at least a huge amount of people could behave in such a way. Enjoy this. Animals could teach humans a thing or two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayrzdxBwzGw

maggie


Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:37 pm
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
Maggie wrote:
I am reading Lenotre's book yet again about the last days of Marie Antoinette and it is unbelievable that an entire city or at least a huge amount of people could behave in such a way

I feel that this is one of the reasons the French Revolution stands out......it was as if half the people lost their minds simultaneously!


That clip was cute Maggie.
Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year too!


Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:36 pm
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
If anything, I'd say that hunger (as well as the living conditions by and large) and the facts of mob psychology are the most obvious explainations.

As far as the mob psychology is concerned, you can still see that nowadays : the lynching of Mummar Gaddafi for instance. It happened in the XXI century in a modern and civilized country like Libya -endowned with modern infrastructures, public education and so on, nothing like XVIII century France, though it is all relative of course. A very Fersen-like death -not that I draw any comparison between the two, even if Gaddafi used to be very handsome in his youth.

I just read Kunster's biography of Fersen, and he thouroughly described the way Fersen was litterally torn apart by the mob. His death was caused by a man trampling and jumping on his chest-and that person turned out to be a Finnish nobleman.


What book by Lenôtre are you reading ?

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:20 am
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
I'm proud to say such things don't happen in England...and I dare anyone to give me one example. We had those lootingriots its' true but we don't have dictators and we don't lynch people. As for the French revolution, the English people was sickened by the events and I don't put that kind of bestial behaviour down to empty stomachs.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:48 am
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
Oh by the way Happy Xmas and a happy New year to you all too! :)

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:49 am
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
baron de batz wrote:
We had those lootingriots its' true but we don't have dictators and we don't lynch people. .


You made my day !

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:51 am
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
Here is a nice book that shall provide you with the required information to qualify your opinion.

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/pr ... 4_1_422031

And an interesting article in English :

http://thecommune.co.uk/2011/10/01/the- ... s-1640-42/

I think any Englishman would ridicule your claim, as it is obvious that England went through more than one civil war. And if Cromwell was no dictator, then nobody is !

But then I agree that England, as the US, is more prone to reform than France and Russia, where changes always seem to occur through violence. I don't know whether you're interested in political philosophy or not, but that's a widely debated topic. You can find theories accounting for this in Tocqueville, De l'Ancien Régime et la Révolution as well as De la Démocratie en Amérique. I had broached this subject in the thread about Robespierre. I also agree that England never had any fascist regime as such, which is also enthralling as far as political philosophy is concerned.

Now about the state violence wielded by England in other part of the world, this is, as you know, an other kettle of fish.

Unfortunately, I assume you did not really mean to start an interesting and rewarding debate, and that your remark boils down to a quip (or a provocation) aiming at huring a certain person's notorious national pride -which of course you will now virtuously deny . :wink:

Happy Christmas !

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:55 am
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
No I'm really sorry to say that I genuinely do believe it. What we got up to and still get up to overseas is scandalous I agree....but as far as domestic politics is concerned the English people has this great merit of not tolerating dictatorial behaviour and I truly believe is still the world's truest democracy. If you want to see why, I invite you to sit down and watch prime Minister's question time screened live on Sky. As a Prime Minister you stand up and take the fire: it is a quite amazing, it is democracy in action, far from the cushioned hemicycle of the French national assembly for example. We did have Cromwell, and you saw how long he lasted. And we also kept a Royal family, for me a true guarantor of democracy through the powers invested in them that mean they represent the nation as a whole , not just 52% of the 55% that voted. Long live the Queen and Vive le Roi! :)

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:30 pm
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
baron de batz wrote:
No I'm really sorry to say that I genuinely do believe it. What we got up to and still get up to overseas is scandalous I agree....but as far as domestic politics is concerned the English people has this great merit of not tolerating dictatorial behaviour and I truly believe is still the world's truest democracy. If you want to see why, I invite you to sit down and watch prime Minister's question time screened live on Sky. As a Prime Minister you stand up and take the fire: it is a quite amazing, it is democracy in action, far from the cushioned hemicycle of the French national assembly for example. We did have Cromwell, and you saw how long he lasted. And we also kept a Royal family, for me a true guarantor of democracy through the powers invested in them that mean they represent the nation as a whole , not just 52% of the 55% that voted. Long live the Queen and Vive le Roi! :)


Well I do not believe you since the way you expressed yourself show obviously that you aim at provoking. But it is your right not to admit it.

As far as the political system of England is concerned, I beg to disagree since this is a country that has a very inefficient majoritarian voting system in terms of democracy and refuses the resort to referendum, which is the most democratic form of expression. The House of the Lords has been reformed only recently, in spite of the fact that this was not only a scandal in terms of democracy but also in terms of justice, since it played the role of a Supreme Court, whithout any qualification whatsoever. England is also a country that refuses the application of the European Charter of Human Rights on a number of accounts, notably when it comes to terrorism.

Since you are broaching the subject of the Monarchy, well, the control on the Queen's immunity is blatantly uncomplete, and the statute of the Queen unclear -some progresses were however made when it comes to the spending, although the situation is unclear. Jacques Chirac was recently condemned in France, I am sorry to say that the head of state is still not liable in a criminal court in the UK. That makes France a country that is far more advanced in terms of rule of law than the UK.

I even wrote a paper on the criminal liability of the Head of state in the UK as opposed to Belgium (another European constitutional monarchy). I can mail it to you if you are interested. The comparison is not so obviously in favour of England.

As far as your argument about the education of the elites goes, well, I head you harking back to this 100000 times and all the time your whole argument boils down to that. I still fail to see the link with democracy. I do not see the value of that point. But maybe that is your only argument, so I understand you cleave to it.

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Last edited by Ludy on Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:38 pm
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
And of course what were Robespierre, Marat and Danton if not dictatorial leaders?

Everything, even the politburo or "Comité de Surété générale" with its' instigation and encouragement of mass public informing, reminds one of a dictatorship, and the similarities with Stalinist Russia, the Komnosol and the suppression of the kulaks, are not even coincidental, as this revolution consciously modelled itself in many ways on that of 1789.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:45 pm
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
baron de batz wrote:

Everything, even the politburo or "Comité de Surété générale" with its' instigation and encouragement of mass public informing, reminds one of a dictatorship, and the similarities with Stalinist Russia, the Komnosol and the suppression of the kulaks, are not even coincidental, as this revolution consciously modelled itself in many ways on that of 1789.



I am sorry, but when did I deny it ? I also wrote a paper on the similarities between the two revolutions, but I will not mail it to you, since it is written in Russian.

If you re-read my post, this was precisely my point.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:47 pm
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
... And Cromwell did rule for quite a long time.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
Ludy wrote:

Well I do not believe you since the way you expressed yourself show obviously that you aim at provoking. But it is your right not to admit it.




Because I beg to differ with you does that necessarily mean I wish to provoke you? :) Or is all dissention provocation in your own personal democracy? :wink:

One can say what one likes about England's political system, the fact is that everything gets such a thorough going over in the House of Commons that by the time it gets to the Lords it is almost a formality! I don't think that that is the case in France!

As for Chirac and Juppé, their condemnations are shocking for me, one of them France's active foreign minister with a suspended prison sentence hanging over him! In England they would never have made it to office in the first place! Just look at the case of the false expense bills put in by English MP's which resulted in the press getting hold of the matter, and literally dozens of them being forced to leave parliament. Here they just re-invent themselves. As Le Pen rightly said if Chirac had been judged at the time like a common mortal he would have never been elected President. And he better understood why the latter refused to debate with him in 2002, another blatant anti-democratic decision! You know yourself that this country like Italy is a Latin country with all that augurs for good and for bad....but here "les affaires' are part of politics.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:58 pm
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
Oh, don't give me that ! Read your original post, which claimed that there was never any lynching in England :lol: and you'll understand what I mean by "qualifying one's opinion". As I said, it was clear from the beginning that you were to deny it virtuously afterwards. You are highly predictable, I am sorry to say.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:01 pm
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Post Re: All the best to all of you for this special season and 2012
baron de batz wrote:



As for Chirac and Juppé, their condemnations are shocking for me, one of them France's active foreign minister with a suspended prison sentence hanging over him! In England they would never have made it to office in the first place! Just look at the case of the false expense bills put in by English MP's which resulted in the press getting hold of the matter, and literally dozens of them being forced to leave parliament. Here they just re-invent themselves. As Le Pen rightly said if Chirac had been judged at the time like a common mortal he would have never been elected President. And he better understood why the latter refused to debate with him in 2002, another blatant anti-democratic decision! You know yourself that this country like Italy is a Latin country with all that augurs for good and for bad....but here "les affaires' are part of politics.


Ok, what about the Queen's legal statute ? Do not sidestep my post.

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Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:03 pm
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