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 Louis XVI's faults 
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
Ludy wrote:
Lilly wrote:
baron de batz wrote:

Also...France, in 1803, under Napoleon, did get paid about 15 million dollars for the Louisiana Purchase.


I read he indeed sold Louisiana for a pittance, to the extent that the American delegation thought at first that the price applied only to the territory that has now become the state of Louisiana. As you know, the territory sold was far bigger than that, and almost doubled the superficy of the US !

I did not really understand that Louisiana thing, I think that the territory had been sold before to the Spanish, then bought back by France in 1800ish and sold to the US... But I am not sure at all. It seems confusing.


It was a great purchase for the US and did indeed double the size of the country. I don't know alot, but the French had claimed the territory since the middle of the 1500's. The Treaty of Paris in 1763 gave the territory to Spain as payment for Spanish assistance to the French............
Then in 1802, the territory was returned to France through a secret treaty the Spanish and French had made unbeknownst to the US. Alarmed by all this, the US initially was trying to purchase New Orleans - Napoleon then offered the whole Louisiana territory and the US took it!


Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:15 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
:argue:

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Last edited by Ludy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:04 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
Focusing on the period of time between May of 1789 and October 1789.......
Although the writing was clearly on the wall by this time, Louis does not seem to grasp the enormity of what was happening. The dauphin was very sick and would die the first part of June 1789, so obviously, as parents, Louis and MA would have been pre-occupied with their child. The overwhelming heartbreak of his death probably immobilized the King to some degree as it would any of us. But - in July, when the court started leaving after the storming of the Bastille, he had to have started to realize the fear that was setting in. It's hard to figure out what he was thinking in not sending his family to safety at this time. I know MA objected to leaving, but Louis was King and could have made her take the kids to a safer place till all the trouble blew over. In the longrun - I believe that Louis's inability to protect his family was a major contributor to his breakdown. Also, I am wondering if Louis XVI didn't suffer from panic/anxiety attacks......which could help to further explain his indecisive personality.


Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:34 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
The idea was to go to Rambouillet, as Charles X did many years later in a similar situation!

By the time Louis XVI had changed his mind and had the horses saddled, the crowd had blocked the exits.

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Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:22 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
baron de batz wrote:
By the time Louis XVI had changed his mind and had the horses saddled, the crowd had blocked the exits.


Yes, we know this...and it happened in October! Why'd he wait?...He had plenty of time before this to put his family out of harms way. There had been plenty of threats made against Marie Antoinette before October - IF Louis had ordered her and the children away, for safety reasons - she could not have refused to go.

I know all about the reforms and the goodness Louis had in his heart, and I do pity his childhood, which was certainly no fault of his own, but still - I am quite irritated with the man. The leading up to the Revolution....and behavior afterward. It may seem harsh to some, but I think the suffering of Marie Antoinette and the children could have been avoided if he'd have just manned up. I don't think the Revolution needed to be the bloodbath it turned into..and I do think that Louis could have prevented things fron getting so out of control if he had paid better attention to what was happening - before he went hunting!

There is a saying - "All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"


Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:54 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
Well, Marie-Antoinette was not keen to leave on her own, was she ?

And I can understand Louis' reluctancy. His demeanour in Varennes pertains to the typical freudian slip. I mean that his behaviour betrays that he did not really want to leave. He was never really at ease with the idea.

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Last edited by Ludy on Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:40 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
???

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Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:07 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
Ludy wrote:
Well, Marie-Antoinette was not keen to leave on her own, was she ? And I can understand Louis' reluctancy. His demeanour in Varennes pertains to the typical freudian slip. I mean that his behaviour betrays that he did not really want to leave. He was never really at ease with the idea.


That is right, MA sure wasn't....she insisted on staying - Madame Elisabeth also stayed by choice, which is hard to understand as she seemed to realize better than Louis what the real situation was. Her love for her brother kept her by his side - the emotions of one's heart can at times be fatal to one's being - as was the case for poor Elisabeth. I can understand these women initially being brave....a part of them must have felt that they would be protected (in the beginning - before October). As a mother myself - I cannot under any circumstances - even imagine children of the ages of the Royal children, being witness to any of this. I can only think that MA and Louis were not initially worried about their personal safety and that is why they stayed - they would not have risked the safety of their kids. A Mother would send her child to safety in a heartbeat if she feared harm would come.

Yes, the ill-fated flight to Varennes. Louis didn't want to leave France and be an absent King. Understandable.

So, do you think that they were secure with their personal safety - up until the march on Versailles in October?


Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:56 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
:angel10:

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Last edited by Ludy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:54 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
Lilly wrote:

I can only think that MA and Louis were not initially worried about their personal safety and that is why they stayed - they would not have risked the safety of their kids. A Mother would send her child to safety in a heartbeat if she feared harm would come.

But your children are not "enfants de France".

It was quite different for them, the decision had important political overtones and I do believe that MA in some ways sacrificed herself and her children to the Nation, or at least consciously put them in danger.

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Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:22 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
baron de batz wrote:
"A Mother would send her child to safety in a heartbeat if she feared harm would come."
But your children are not "enfants de France.
It was quite different for them, the decision had important political overtones and I do believe that MA in some ways sacrificed herself and her children to the Nation, or at least consciously put them in danger.


Baron - How did MY children enter this conversation? I dare you to tell my Daughter she isn't a Princess!! (Laughing)
How do you feel MA consciously put them in danger?

Ludy - that's what I'm talking about...
Regarding their personal safety, the conclusion I come to, is that Louis XVI & Marie Antoinette, based upon their own actions, did not fear personal harm up until the point when the mob marched to Versailles and they were taken to Paris. Surely traumatizing - with lasting effects. It just blows my mind that they didn't understand the anger against them till this happened.
I view Louis as the cause of MA's problems which is why I am so irritated with him. I agree that until the last part of his life, he didn't display much sympathy or sensitivity for the position she was in - I'm not sure how much he really concerned himelf with it. If he had, why, why, why was he asking on the day the Tuilleries was attacked - "What has she done to them?" Are you kidding me, Louis?!! By August of 1792 he still didn't know why his wife was hated? Another author said MA turned green on that day when Louis said the Tuilleries would not be defended. I can fully understand if she did want to slap him....repeatedly.


Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:27 pm
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
As Hamlet says: "Thus conscience makes cowards of us all..."

I don't think that Louis was a coward himself, he had for example great physical strength, but he was acutely aware of the danger his family would be in had he ordered the Tuileries to be defended and had this obsessive desire not to spill his subjects' blood...some of his subjects in return were less squeamish about doing that :(

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Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:01 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
Lilly wrote:

How do you feel MA consciously put them in danger?

By insisting to stay by Louis' side, and as it was clear in turn that she would not let her children leave her side, it was a conscious decision to include them in her sacrifice.

I see the same thing in the book I'm currently reading on the Leningrad siege, where mothers refuse to give their children up to a very hazardous evacuation plan, saying that if necessary they will die together...which they indeed did in great numbers.

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Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:06 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
:glasses:

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Last edited by Ludy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:10 am
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Post Re: Louis XVI's faults
I would not say that Louis XVI was a good husband. Sorry to be so conservative, but to my mind, a good husband is a protector. He was nice and kind-hearted, but he never tried to put Marie-Antoinette back onto the right path, he never displayed much authority and never shielded her. On the contrary, by striving to keep her away from politics, he induced her to indulge in her frivolous past times (which she clearly enjoyed) and spend more time with the greedy or not so greedy Yolande de Polignac, regardless of the consequences it entailed for her popularity.

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Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:27 am
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