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 Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA? 
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
:naughty:

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Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:10 am
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
I was reading yesterday Martineau's speech, as well as Mona Ozouf dictionnary of the Revolution. Mona Ozouf confirms that the Revolution's original aim was not to attack faith, and that this result was merely incidental :

"Rien à l'origine ne laissait prévoir le conflit entre la Révolution et l'Eglise, fruit de décisions partielles et successives, qui vont jouer comme les pièces d'un engrenage involontaire"

"Nothing at the very beginning made forseeable the clash between the Revolution and the Church. That was the result of a chain of decisions, whose outcome was not intended."


Martineau, in advocating a Civilian constitution for the Clergy indeed made out that the basis for such a Constitution had to be traced back to the origin of the Church, which the Catholic church had warped. Indeed, the bishops and priests were elected. It is the very idea of regeneration : going back to the source of religion.

Guéniffey also argues that Robespierre's religiosity is undeniable. If he did loathe the Clergy, religion was entrenched in his thought to such an extent that he indeed thought it was essential for a society to stand.

The religiosity of the revolutionnary leaders is proved in many of their speeches and writing. For instance, Robespierre once sparked off an general uproar in the Assembly by advocating the end of the rule of celibacy for the priests. This was apparently more than the revolutionnaries could stomach. They all had, even Hébert, an ingrained respect for religion, entwined with their dislike of the Catholic church as an institution.

Robespierre's speech about the link between religious ideas and moral principles, he backdowned and seemed to acknowledge that the efforts made towards building a National church through the Civilian constitution of the Clergy reached a stalemate. This opens the way to Bonaparte's concordat with the Pope.

Atheism existed amongst the revolutionnaries : the most famous atheists were Fouché and Carrier (who cracked down on the Vendeans in Nantes). However, atheism was generally frowned upon and rejected by the vast majority of the revolutionnary leaders : Marc-Antoine Jullien even went so far as to demanding all atheists to be expelled from the Jacobin club.

The revolution was thus completely at odds with communism, in the sense that religion was not at all rejected. Marx deemed religion dangerous for society, the French revolutionnary thought it was essential. There is all the difference.

There is no doubt however that the attack on the Catholic church were unacptable for staunch believers, who did not make out between the Church and the faith. I also think that it is important to bear in mind that the Vendée upheaval had less pure origins as well : taxation had a lot to do with that.

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Last edited by Ludy on Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:45 am
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
baron de batz wrote:
Pretty well everything I've ever read which is a hell of a lot!

Ludy wrote:

I do not understand. Read my post again and come up with an appropriate answer. Thank you.


It is quite clear what I say, so don't be intentionally obtuse! I am saying that as far as property and religion is concerned, you say that Bonaparte changed the rules, but we were talking about the two revolutions, and I was not comparing Directory, Consulate or First Empire with the Russian revolution. Were you?!!


My point is precisely that the right to private property was never denied in France. I never said Bonaparte changed any role, but consecrated the principle of property. Read my post.

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Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:08 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
Moving back to the topic.....

Baron, On the day of the walk, the man from the Marie-Antoinette Association told me that it took 2 hours for the tumbril to travel from the Concierge to the Place de la Revolution. I can imagine this to be so, as it took a good deal of time for us to do that walk, even though we did stop for lunch. I imagine that the tumbril crawled like a snail through the streets. And, I do also agree Ludy about how orchestrated the whole thing was. I'm sure the Revolutionaries would have loved to see MA break down on the way! Proof of the show they wanted to put on is in the route to the guillotine - instead of taking the tumbril down the road next to the river - which is almost a straight shot - they went way out of the way to go up the rue St. Honore to the rue Royal.


Anne Boleyn had only to come from the Queen's lodging at the Tower of London, outside to the Tower Green to her execution.


Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:23 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
I think the death of Marie-Antoinette was indeed a show meant to assuage the public anger. It is clear how everything was orchestrated so that on one side, she would be humiliated but on the other not to the point of being physically attacked.

I also think Louis XVI's death was a show, but a more solemn one, since it coincided with the death of the monarchy.


Two hours seem indeed incredibly long to connect the Conciergerie to the Place de la Concorde. It strikes me as a very weird intinerary.

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Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:27 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
Ludy wrote:
In fact the American revolution boiled down to claiming the rights the Americans were deprived of (i.e "no taxation without representation), thus legitimizing the original form of the British regime, same for the existence of a monarch. The regime in itself was not criticized, what was criticized was the fact that the Americans were denied the same rights as the Britons.


Just a comment concerning the American Revolution..... the statement "No Taxation without Representation". The point was not that the Americans had no representation - the point was, that the American Revolutionaries did not want representation in England. This would have made them English subjects and that was the last thing they wanted - they wanted their independence from England. They felt the English King had no right to tax them and they wanted to set up their own system of laws and taxation.


Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:36 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
Really ? How fascinating !


I'm sorry it is a great suprise for me, because I had always thought the other way round, that the Boston tea party and all that was the result of the lack of representation in England. I.E that they wer protesting against the fact that they were NOT represented and therefore, no taxation could possibly be levelled on them.

It's really what I remember from my 1 year history program, and my reading on the subject back then. But then it was quite a while ago.

So you mean that this argument was rethorical and an excuse to spark off the war on independence ? I was under the impression that the Americans were sick and tired of British levelling taxes on them, thus curbing their foreign trade.

Funny how I got everything wrong.

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Last edited by Ludy on Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.



Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:40 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
This is what I found on Wikipedia (dubious, I know)

"No taxation without representation" is a slogan originating during the 1750s and 1760s that summarized a primary grievance of the British colonists in the Thirteen Colonies, which was one of the major causes of the American Revolution. In short, many in those colonies believed the lack of direct representation in the distant British Parliament was an illegal denial of their rights as Englishmen, and therefore laws taxing the colonists (one of the types of laws that affects the majority of individuals directly), and other laws applying only to the colonies, were unconstitutional. However, during the time of the American Revolution, only one in twenty British citizens had representation in parliament, none of whom were part of the colonies. In recent times, it has been used by several other groups in several different countries over similar disputes, including currently in some parts of the United States (see below)."

The British Parliament had controlled colonial trade and taxed imports and exports since 1660. By the 1760s the Americans were being deprived of a historic right.The English Bill of Rights 1689 had forbidden the imposition of taxes without the consent of Parliament. Since the colonists had no representation in Parliament the taxes violated the guaranteed Rights of Englishmen. Parliament contended that the colonists had virtual representation.

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Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:42 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
Ludy wrote:
Really ? How fasinating !


I'm sorry it is a great suprise for me, because I had always thought the other way round, that the Boston tea party and all that was the result of the lack of representation in England. I.E that they wer protesting against the fact that they were NOT represented and therefore, no taxation could possibly be levelled on them. But I got everything wrong then.

It's really what I remember from my 1 year history program, and my reading on the subject back then. But then it was quite a while ago.


Ludy, yes...really. I only pointed this out because most people have it backward. The colonists did not want representation - I think it was the Stamp Act that really pissed the colonists off and the Tea Party ensued (I have not double checked this, I hop my memory serves me well!) Representation would only serve to make them English subjects - they were American and would rule and tax themselves.


Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:54 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
The colonists felt the King had no right to tax them.

Representation in England was a no win situation for the Americans anyhow because their representation would be so minimal that they could always be outvoted.


Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
By the way, I did not want to present myself as a slef-proclaimed expert on the American revolution (I've read a little but not much about it), but I was mentioning a theory, I believe of Israelian historian Zeev Sternhell about the differences between the two revolution and why the French revolution turned out to be more radical.

His point was that the American revolution was grounded on the same core principles that the regime they were rejecting, contrary to the French revolution, which was questioning the core principle of the Ancien Régime. And that, therefore, the slogan "no taxation without representation" was a legitimization of their revolution through principles that were originally those of the British monarchy. The French on the other hand wanted to alter the regime in itself and were at odds with the fundamental tenets of this regime.


This is very theoretical and vague, I agree.

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Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:59 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
Lilly wrote:
Ludy, yes...really. I only pointed this out because most people have it backward. The colonists did not want representation - I think it was the Salt tax that really pissed the colonists off and the Tea Party ensued (I have not double checked this, I hop my memory serves me well!) Representation would only serve to make them English subjects - they were American and would rule and tax themselves.


You call that in French a "grand moment de solitude" for me.

:oops:

I think it is time for me to clam up and bow out.

:shifty:

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Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:05 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
Ludy wrote:
By the way, I did not want to present myself as a slef-proclaimed expert on the American revolution (I've read a little but not much about it), but I was mentioning a theory


I know that .....I'm no expert either! Just relying on my memory here. The only reason I mentioned it is because most people understand that quote different to what the actual meaning was.


Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:08 pm
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
Apparently, there was a chain of new taxes voted by England : the stamp act, sugar act, and then the tea act. So the Boston tea party must have been linked with the tea act (mmm, great thinking Ludy).

I've read that the Boston tea party was one of the many upheavals that sparked off the war on independence.

I don't know the reason why England suddenly leveled so many new taxes, maybe there was a war going on and a need for funds : the Seven Year war ? `


So much about Ann Boleyn ... )

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Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:04 am
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Post Re: Is Anne Boleyn is more deserving of sympathy than MA?
I have Daniel Boorstin's History of the American people at my place, he must say something about that. This is an amazing work, but very thick (about 2 000 pages I believe) so that you cannot possibly go through the whole thing if you have other business to attend to, such as working, studying, sleeping and eating. I have read about the half, but then needed to make a pause, and now I feel I have to start again from scratch, as I have clean forgotten about what was written already. It is a bit frustrating, all the more that he is very exhaustive about the war of independence, though he focuses on the daily life than on the major historical events. I greatly recommend it if ever you happen to be idle for a long period of time (War and Peace can do as well).

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Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:20 am
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