Marie Antoinette Online
  • FORUM
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:17 pm



Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant? 
Author Message
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Well, we have to agree to disagree.

The fact that Marie-Antoinette was not a beauty is in fact confirmed by many of the reports. You really have to pay attention on how they are written (the grammar and the words used) because those people were diplomats and the Martyr Queen could hardly be citicized : when a description of any Royal is full of grammatical concession words such as "though" or "although", it hardly bodes well. In fact, even those who wanted to say only positive things had trouble praising her appearance. Vermont for instance had to admit that her facial features were in fact unpleasant, but overall she was charming. That must not be taken at face value ! In fact, any Royal ugly girl from Royal origin enjoyed such a treatment, even the repuslive Maria-Anna of Bavaria or Maria-Theresia of Spain. The way the descriptions are written is in fact more important than what is actually written, because it is the XVIII century high society here ! Those people were born diplomats, and saying an Archduchess was unattractive was an offense to Austria.

And one must not forget that a lot of this was written after the Queen's death, when the legend already embroidered a lot of things.

Reading Tilly between the lines, all he says is that, although Marie-Antoinette was a good fit for the throne, she was in no way attractive. Summing it up, her beauty boiled down to her arms and shoulders. Even if we admit that Tilly had quarrelled it with her, then Madame Vigée Lebrun says just the same thing, though in even more diplomatical terms.


I do think Marie-Antoinette was endowed with a real charm, which was due to her feminity, pride, and social position, in the same way as Mary Stuart. But for both women, the legend and the tragic death played a great role in that.

You are totally wrong about what you said about other Queens. All the Queens were praised in the same way as Marie-Antoinette was, but they did not have the same tragic fate : Maria di Medici was said to be extremely beautiful, so was Anna of Austria. They all had male groupies, especially Anna of Autria, but Maria di Medici as well ! It was the case for all of them, unless they were too obvisouly unattractive (The Grande Dauphine, Maria Leczinska). Louis XV's mother, who was ugly (she was skinny, with black teeth) also had A LOT of fans, so many as Marie-Antoinette. Marie-Antoinette was absolutely no exception in that.

It was very profitable to be the fan of a Royal, so as soon as their attitude encouraged flattery and compliments, any Royal girl would have a ton of them. It is a pity Marie-Antoinette did not wise up to that sooner. She was in fact very ill at ease with her actual appearance, which belied the compliments she received : her attitude towards the painters that were too realistic betrays that.

Were there so many male admirers anyway ? How many of them were sincere ? A lot of this had to do with her behaviour, not with her appearance. When any woman behaves in such a way that she encourages compliments, she rarely misses especially when she is the Queen of France.

Being averagely attractive was enough for a queen to be said to be beautiful. We only remember Marie-Antoinette because of that tragic end. But had Marie di Medici been executed, we would now praise her beauty and charm.



Indeed her plight played a great part in the attraction she exerted on a few men, such as Barnave and Fersen. More than the attraction to a woman whose beauty was already on the wane, it stemmed from a feudal allegiance to the crone, which remained ingrained and entranched even in revolutionnaries such as Barnave, as well the awe she inspired, entwined with compassion.


I do not think she was beautiful, as let us say, Empress Alexandra of Russia or Elizabeth of Autria -whose beauty is cofirmed by photographs.

And frankly, if you saw this 1 meter 65 tall redhead in real life nowadays, with her longish nose and buggling eyes, I guess you would say that compared to a lot of pretty girls, she could not hold a candle. A man I know once told me, looking at a picture of hers that he would not have dated her. Cruelly summed up, but close to what most men would think of her today :lol:


I do not think Louis XVI was attracted to her, though he must indeed have felt humiliated, especially as the blame of their marital failure was put solely on him

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:22 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
And no, I do not think she was intelligent. I have read some of her letters : they are well-written, as most letters of that time, but did not prove me that she was especially intelligent. In some of her letters about politics, I actually found her to be a retard, like in the 1791 letter, where she wrote that they must inspire the good people with love and confidence. Or the letter about the coronation, which proves, as Bertière puts it, that she did not even understand what it was all about. As often as not, her politcal analyses were flimsy, skewed and full of prejudices, that is why she got on so well with Fersen, who was no rocket scientist either. They could hark back to how nasty, mean and stupid the mob was, instead of understanding the roots of the problems.

If one of the letters I did not read prove that she was an outstanding intellectual, I'd be eager to read it.

I do think she did have wit and common sense though, and a lot of taste.

To me, nobody is intelligent by birth. You become intelligent through your efforts. Someone that does not read, does not travel, does not make effort to learn cannot be said to be intelligent in any way. And intelligence is always partly academic : it requires reading, concentration and sometimes nerdy conversations and dull works. I do not believe you can learn and have fun at the same time, I do not believe that anybody can be intelligent without these endeavors. And Marie Antoinette never made them. Then again, this is only my opinion.

I think, on the other hand, that intelligence is not the most essential quality. The qualities of heart and the values should in any way prevail. A lot of Nazi leaders were superiorly intelligent, for instance.

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:04 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
As you say we have to agree to disagree, and you would have to do the the same with numerous acknowledged biographers and historians who stated the opposite. In other words that even if not beautiful, she was highly atttractive. Rarely has any sovereign been so often painted, and we cannot say that all these paintings were false likenesses or overtly flattering and one can see that she was an attractive woman, but with blemishes that all these biographers point out...the lower lip, the dominant forehead. The latest in date for me is Pierre de Nolhac in his book "Autour de la Reine". And you must also look at the various busts done of her which quite clearly show her up for who and what she was, such as Pajou, Boizot and Houdon. She wasn't a classic beauty for sure, her good looks faded fast after the troubles, but she was a very attractive and no doubt sensual looking woman.

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:14 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Well, I looked at all her busts and portraits, and even the most flattered ones do not manage to turn her into a beautiful woman. Fraser, Bertière, Delorme and Bordonove are I think quite realistic about her appearance, and do not say she was beautiful. Bertière writes that she was "not pretty".

The busts are especially telling : as Fraser puts it "they are a good deal less flattering". It takes fortitude to assert she was a beauty when you look at them.

About the painters, she dismissed all those who painted her realistically : the first one in Autria was ordred to flatter her and complained he got told off because he did not make her beautiful enough, Werthmüller was fired and the Queen notoriously dissatisfied with his portrait, in spite of the fact that Campan wrote that his portraits were amongst the most realistic ...


So no, I do not think she was beautiful and especially not sensual. But this is my opinion.

To me there is not such thing as a non classical beauty. Beauty is objective, full stop.

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:18 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
I'm sorry but Wertmüller's portrait makes her look like a pig!

Kucharsky's late portraits show her up very clearly and were acknowledged as very true to life. She shows up as a very attractive but not beautiful woman...look at Dagoty as well, one cannot say she isn't attractive!

STOP INSULTING MY QUEEN!!!!!! :angry4: :angry4: :angry4:

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:26 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Marie-Antoinette was painted so often only because she required to be painted, had she been ugly do you think the painters would have turned her down ? She was constantly dissatisfied with them anyway.


Marie de Medicis was also painted by Rubens, a great chain of monumental paintings as you know : he considered her as a model of beauty...

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:28 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
baron de batz wrote:
look at Dagoty as well, one cannot say she isn't attractive!

STOP INSULTING MY QUEEN!!!!!! :angry4: :angry4: :angry4:


Dagoty was dismissed by the Queen because his portraits were not resembling enough.

As for Kucharsky, well, it is a matter of taste I suppose. :shock:


Campan states that Werthmüller's portrait (with the children) is the most realistic.

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:29 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Campan is far from being my particular oracle with her restoration mémoires...the Prince de Ligne for example describes her quite differently.

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:44 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
As does the Comte de Tilly, the Baronne d'Oberkirch.....etc etc

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Dear Baron, I already said just what I thought of Tilly's description and how I interpreted it. How about reading the posts ?

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:47 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Yawn...

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:50 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
Once again, intelligence has a lot to do with efforts, dull works, nerdy discussion and concentration ! :lol:

Everything can not be entertaining Baron, sorry for you, as you said yourself "reading about history is not necessarily easy". And it is clear from this discussion that you know what you are talking about. Yawn, yawn.


Let me just notice that once again, you're the one who answered to my posts, and the one that bowed out, with some stupid remarks to make up for the lack of adequate arguments. I have the feeling it amuses is you, you must be very bored in life...


Yawn, indeed.

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:59 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:21 am
Posts: 1545
Location: paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
No I just took a little breather....I'm back! :lol:

So you mentioned Comte de Tilly somewhere..sorry I missed that one. Recently or months ago?

So you know his description of the Queen, which pretty well sums up what I say. And he was angry and in disgrace with her when he wrote it!

_________________
"Fidelité et constance, sans espoir de récompense."


Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:09 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
In my post above, the long one.

It's gonna be hard. Bear up !!!

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:11 pm
Profile
Prince/Princesse
Prince/Princesse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:42 am
Posts: 653
Location: Paris
Post Re: Why could Louis not get Marie Antoinette pregnant?
baron de batz wrote:
No I just took a little breather....I'm back! :lol:

So you mentioned Comte de Tilly somewhere..sorry I missed that one. Recently or months ago?

So you know his description of the Queen, which pretty well sums up what I say. And he was angry and in disgrace with her when he wrote it!


I tackled this point to. Courage, Baron.

_________________
" Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.


Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:12 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 53 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.