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No evidence exists of Louis ever having that type of surgery. It is a myth spread by Zweig. He went hunting everyday during the time he was supposed to have had the mythical surgery, which would have been impossible.

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:49 pm
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There are similarities between Louis and Charles in that both were very intellectual and devoted to their hobbies. Louis was very religious, however, and never had a mistress. He may have ended up having one, who knows. But he fell in love with his wife. He married Antoinette while they were both young and innocent; they learned about sex together and one did not have extensive prior experience as in the case of Charles and Diana. I think Diana would have had more of a chance with Charles if there had not been such an age difference and if he were not so involved with Camilla. M-A and Diana were not very intellectual women married to very intellectual men. But M-A was an accomplished coquette - she knew how to keep a man entranced. Diana belonged to a generation in which coquetry was lost. She was not able to win Charles from camilla - she did not have the knowledge to enchant him with her conversation. They say she suffered terribly frm her parents' divorce and had high-expectations of what her marriage should be and was devastated by Charles' infidelity. And she was at a loss as to how to win him....

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:59 pm
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These two children were far to young ! But it was all political, wasn't it ? When both courts noticed there were problems in this marriage, they both were afraid, especially Marie-Therese. All these Habsburg ladies were so good at reproduction, you know ! Marie-Therese, with 16 children, Marie-Caroline who would have 18...

So, the empress really could not admit there could be a difficulty with her daughter. Her ambassador Mercy tried to put the blame on Louis the best he could, and he spread out this rumour that an operation was required.

This rumour rapidly was spread out in every country of Europe, all the courts spoke about this ! And it is true this possibility is mentioned in Mercy and Marie-Therese's correspondence, even in some letters written by Antoinette.

For purpose of decency, the first edition of this correspondence censured these passages. Zweig went to Vienna, and search the authentic manuscripts. Having read about an operation, he thought he had found the clue to the problem !

But he did not see this was all but suppositions... Louis XVI's very precise diary shows no entry to any operation, while it mentions his inoculation and every important event. On the contrary, it shows no interruption in his hunting, while a surgical intervention would have caused a pause.

More recent researchs pointed out the problem was that those two teens were not physically "fitting", not appropriated to each other. Being already very tall, Louis obviously was sexually "a man", and a strong one, while his little wife still was a baby...

Repeating these painful experiences may have damaged their sexual lives... Oh, this damned politic !

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:08 pm
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Furthermore, Therese, Charles and Camilla seem to be made for each other... Sorry for Diana... I think her marriage was a terrible mistake, that would eventually have led to a divorce, anyhow. Charles and Camilla share so many tastes, and, apart from being lovers (according to these so hot phone calls ! ), they are very good friends.

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:11 pm
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very interesting indeed thank you. i had no idea that it was the opposite where louis was concerned. poor poor MA, i have read about that condition in magazines etc and its very unpleasant.

diana probably thought love was enough but people need to be satisfied in other ways as you have all said. still i do feel very sorry for her and even more so for MA now.

imagine your bedroom problems being broadcast around europe, how humiliating. i thought people had more respect for their monarchs back then!


Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:17 pm
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I don't know, severina. I think the public remains the same, whetever the period of history may be... The French people enjoyed reading about their royals sex stories, just the way some people still do buy some tabloids.

As far as Marie-Antoinette is concerned, it all got monstruous, indeed. While she may have been frigid, actually, she became for public imaginations a super-sexual heroine ! They enjoyed reading awful pamphlets and shared disgusting engravings showing her as a lubricious monster.

I don't get how it could come to such excess... I guess this whole crowd should have needed good shrinks ! :?

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Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:26 pm
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Pimprenelle wrote:
These two children were far to young ! But it was all political, wasn't it ? When both courts noticed there were problems in this marriage, they both were afraid, especially Marie-Therese. All these Habsburg ladies were so good at reproduction, you know ! Marie-Therese, with 16 children, Marie-Caroline who would have 18...

So, the empress really could not admit there could be a difficulty with her daughter. Her ambassador Mercy tried to put the blame on Louis the best he could, and he spread out this rumour that an operation was required.

This rumour rapidly was spread out in every country of Europe, all the courts spoke about this ! And it is true this possibility is mentioned in Mercy and Marie-Therese's correspondence, even in some letters written by Antoinette.

For purpose of decency, the first edition of this correspondence censured these passages. Zweig went to Vienna, and search the authentic manuscripts. Having read about an operation, he thought he had found the clue to the problem !

But he did not see this was all but suppositions... Louis XVI's very precise diary shows no entry to any operation, while it mentions his inoculation and every important event. On the contrary, it shows no interruption in his hunting, while a surgical intervention would have caused a pause.

More recent researchs pointed out the problem was that those two teens were not physically "fitting", not appropriated to each other. Being already very tall, Louis obviously was sexually "a man", and a strong one, while his little wife still was a baby...

Repeating these painful experiences may have damaged their sexual lives... Oh, this damned politic !


This is all very interesting, I have heard a little bit about this theory but not much. Was the main problem with Marie that she was so young and not fully developed? Or did she have an actual physical problem like that all of her life?


Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:51 am
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Yes If MA did have this supposed problem did it follow her for the rest of her life?
I swear I remember reading that after finally having sex with MA, Louis became quite fond of the act.

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Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:47 pm
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Monsieur Royale wrote:
Yes If MA did have this supposed problem did it follow her for the rest of her life?
I swear I remember reading that after finally having sex with MA, Louis became quite fond of the act.


i always think its so romantic and sweet that he never had a mistress and loved MA so much. just goes to show folk don't NEED to have mistresses especially royal ones. yes i AM making a dig at prince charles! :lol:


Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:49 pm
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severina wrote:
Monsieur Royale wrote:
Yes If MA did have this supposed problem did it follow her for the rest of her life?
I swear I remember reading that after finally having sex with MA, Louis became quite fond of the act.


i always think its so romantic and sweet that he never had a mistress and loved MA so much. just goes to show folk don't NEED to have mistresses especially royal ones. yes i AM making a dig at prince charles! :lol:

I completly agree it makes a much better love story then the whole Fersen thing.

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Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:51 pm
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Quote:
Yes If MA did have this supposed problem did it follow her for the rest of her life?
I swear I remember reading that after finally having sex with MA, Louis became quite fond of the act.

I think that, first of all, she was too young and not fully matured for sex. Her monthly cycle was not yet fixed ! So, following Simone Bertiere, there could have been some natural non consummation in the beginning.

After a while, Louis tried to do "his duty", but it was painful for both of them. I am no gynecologist, I can't tell you more... Was she reluctant ? Was it physical ? Psychological ? Anyway, Louis did not enjoy it either, the way it happened !

Then came Joseph, who told his brother-in-law how to deal with a woman ! That's his version of facts, at least. But he also spoke to his sister, and certainly convinced her to get more obligeant, for the interests of the August House of Austria, for sure ! :roll:

A few months later, indeed, Antoinette was pregnant. Certainly these discussions with Joseph defroze something in this pair's relationships !

Now, what about "her problem" ? I guess that, with experience, it improved. It also did, obviously, with childbirthings. However, following Bertiere, she could have been reluctant to sex by nature. Joseph wrote that she was "austere by temper". Mme Lever once answered on interview that Antoinette could have been frigid as a consequence.

We'll never know... ? :shock: It is true Louis is reported to have said to his aunts that he enjoyed pleasure very much. Tant mieux ! :D

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Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:23 am
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Quote:
I completly agree it makes a much better love story then the whole Fersen thing.

Indeed, Monsieur Royale ! I recently saw several movies about Antoinette. As portraied in films, Fersen is a completely uninteresting character. He has no consistance, no depth, no reality. He is nothing but a hero, as empty as Virgilius' Aeneas !

Even if caricaturized, Louis keeps being attractive, for we, spectators, feel that there is something behind this character, that a true man once existed, with his qualities and failures, in all his human complexity.

Unfortunately, Fersen never had this chance with cinema ! They emptied him of all his psychological characteristics... He became a cold prince charmant (charming prince ?). I guess the real man finished eaten up by his character !

Back to reality, there would be more to say about Louis and Antoinette, for we could describe a day-to-day relationship, how it evoluated, how it transformed to reach this final point when, as Mme Bertiere said, Marie-Antoinette took her husband for model when having to face death.

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Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:34 am
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Pimpernelle, thanks for explaining the thing about MA's problem. It makes much more sense to me now!

You're so right on the portrayl of Fersen he's portrayed as generically as a hero from novel :lol:
Although they always seem to try and play Louis in a negative way. He still comes through. Personally I loved how Coppola portrayed him. Showed him as a family man. In the 1938 "Marie Antoinette" they make you think twice about him. The last supper with the family in that film is so sad

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I was a queen, and you took away my crown; a wife, and you killed my husband; a mother, and you deprived me of my children. My blood alone remains: take it, but do not make me suffer long.


Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:44 pm
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Monsieur Royale wrote:
Although they always seem to try and play Louis in a negative way..... In the 1938 "Marie Antoinette" they make you think twice about him. The last supper with the family in that film is so sad


Oh I know what you mean about the supper scene. It is heartbreaking! What is even sadder though is that it reminds us of how truly heartbreaking it must have been in real-life. :cry:

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Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:53 am
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Yes... even if this last supper is not accurate... sorry for reminding it, I know how heretical I may seem... Be sure I also found this scene heartbreaking, with this little doll and so on, and the efforts those parents make to hide the truth from the children.

Actually, we all know that Louis could only say farewell to his family for about an hour. Gards could watch them through a glass door. They heard them sreaming and crying. It was terrible... Then, they calmed down and we don't know what they said to each other.

At the end, Louis had to leave. He promised he would see them again the next morning at 7. He would not. Marie-Antoinette waited for him but he would not come. All she got was the shouting of the mad mob from the Revolution Square. "Vive la nation !" "Vive la république !"

Do you think she kneeled down before her son, her new king ? I have always thought this was a royalist legend. I rather imagine she fell on her bed and cried her eyes out.

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Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:58 pm
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