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 the french revolution 

How many of you think that the french revolution has been necessary for a changement of the society ( not only french) and for the introduction of the democracy?
Yes, it has been necessary and inevitable. 22%  22%  [ 9 ]
No, it hasn't been necessary. It could happened in different ways.. 73%  73%  [ 30 ]
I don't know sincererly! 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 41

 the french revolution 
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that's such a great post and puts it all in a very neat and comprehensive way. its like the russian revolution, the russians suffered much more after the czar and his poor family were killed. they're still suffering today under one corrupt power hungry after another. i don't count gorbachev as i truly believe he wanted the best for his people. in light of today's events (the death of the russian spy here in britain who was poisoned), i still think the russian people are being kept down.

would you say france now is in a better position than ever? did the revolution do any good in the end ie over 200 years later?

sorry i've gone on a bit! i just don't understand how people can be so cruel even today.


Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:02 am
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The French Revolution is a very complicated matter.

I agree that it was a violent revolution. The revolutionary french people shouldn't had kiled neither Marie Antoinette or a poor monarchist peasant.

But by the other hand, the Revolution didn't killed Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. The Revolution killed the King and Queen of France, rulers of a country ruled by tradition.

I'm not saying that the revolutoinary are rigth at killing Antoinette! But they didn't care about the person, but with what it represented. Louis and Antoinette would been better as a wonderful couple of aristocrats in their château in the Loire, that King and Queen of France. They weren't lucky for being french rulers. The only thing that Louis did was paying the debts of Louis XIV and Louis XV! And maybe the Louis XIII's ones! He also helped the american people to built a free country...

Now, comparing with the Russian Revolution. I considere severina to be rigth. The russian was more agressive, and the russian people is still suffering today (let us see the russian journalists that are being killed nowadays!!!).

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Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:32 pm
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Is France better off now for the Revolution? That is a difficult question to answer, considering that we will never know what France could or might have been had the Revolution not occurred. I would say that today the French are better off than they have ever been, but not necessarily because of the Revolution as much as the advances in technology, healthcare, industry, etc. Then again, the people of all Western nations are better off today for these advances, regardless of their system of government or past history....
On the other hand, I must note that before the French Revolution, France was a dominant influence in European civilization; French art, science, fashion, philosphy were the envy of the world. French was the international language of choice...... Following the Revolution, Great Britian emerged as the dominant power in Europe, and English has became the international language.


Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:29 am
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that's really interesting christophe. i remember learning in school that french was THE language for diplomatic use and its such a shame that in english speaking countries like here and the US that languages aren't given higher priority. we're lazy now and don't feel the need to learn other ones. its such a shame but i think a lot of influence comes from america, they're the dominant country in the world, if spanish was the dominant language it would be different i think.

i learnt french at school (loved it, always thought its a beautiful language along with italian) but i've forgotten a lot. when we go abroad we should accept that folk don't speak english and its our fault for not trying and not theirs. we went to barcelona recently and muddled through with broken spanish. that's the fun of the world, different cultures, languages and tradition. i truly hope that doesn't disappear from the world, it would be a great tragedy!

anyway i'm waffling away and going off topic, france as i see it is a great country. their law and order is infinitely better than the uk's where criminals are now treated as victims (my dh is a policeman and is frustrated at the way the courts work, almost making his job unnecessary at times!). when we've been to france with our family, we've been treated with great courtesy eg putting us to the head of queues as we have a toddler and the like. that would hardly ever happen in the uk!

so france is a great success but the bloodshed of the revolution seems to have been too much, it wasn't necessary. its a great example of what can happen when law and order break down and unfortunately MA was a tragic victim because of this.

i find it interesting that in france she's a hallowed figure now which is, of course, the way it should be.


Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:55 pm
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[quote="Jules de Polignac"] But by the other hand, the Revolution didn't killed Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. The Revolution killed the King and Queen of France, rulers of a country ruled by tradition.

Your absolutely right Jules, If anyone, Comte de mirabeau & Duc D'Orleans are MOST responsible for the death of Louis & Antoinette, at least at the personal level. The king's brothers did the best they could to bring down Louis & Antoinette, by fincancing pamphlets etc... Too bad they brought everything down (including their own positions) through all of their scheming.

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Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:36 pm
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Nesta Webster quotes Baron de Stael and La Marck about the Orleanist and Illuminati conspiracy to kill the queen, whose death was necessary for the triumph of the Revolution. Stael said, "They say for certain that Madame de la Motte is to ask for a revision of her trial, and that she often sees [Madame de Genlis]...the gouvernante of the Orleans children. Dark and terrible things are being plotted against the Queen."

According to La Marck, "It was Mirabeau who informed the Court of this execrable conspiracy." Even though Mirabeau was an Illuminatus, he was captivated by the queen and furious at the plots against her. La Marck goes on the say, "The Queen, whose character they know, as also her clearness of perception and her firmness, would be the first object of their attack both as the first and strongest rampart of the throne and as the sentinel watching most closely over the safety of the monarchy."

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Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:59 pm
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Mirabeau was not a baited revolutionist, he was more for a constitutional monarchy, being afraid of the revolution's drifts.
He thus tried to help and convince the royal family to accept the constitution so that the revolution stops...and he fell a little under the charm from the determination of Marie-Antoinette. he said after an interview with her: "Le Roi n'a qu'un seul homme, sa femme". :D

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Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:08 pm
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Here are some of the reforms of Louis XVI, made of his own free will beginning from the moment he ascended the throne. He was considered quite the Liberal.

1774 Louis XVI placed Turgot in charge of finances and introduced free circulation of grain. Founded School of Medicine in Paris.

1775 droits d'octroi were reduced, prison reform begun, and the death penalty for deserters was abolished.

1776 The king signed the six edicts of Turgot comprising the abolition of the corvee. The parlements resisted the edicts, preventing them from becoming law. (The parlements were full of masons.) In the same year he reduced his household.

1778 more taxes reduced

1779 The king abolished servitude and other reforms were made.

1780 Further reductions in the Royal household were made, hospital reform was begun, prison reform continued, most torture was abolished.

1784 Relief given to Jews

1786 more hospital reform, aid to the deaf, and provisions made for lost children

1787 Steps taken towards the total abolition of the corvee, more reductions in royal household, civil rights accorded to Jews and Protestants

1788 All forms of torture were abolished, greater freedom given to press, steps towards abolition of lettres de cachet

All of this is from Nesta Webster, but it is a matter of public record. Anyone who thinks Louis XVI was a lazy, sluggish, do-nothing king need only examine the six volumes of laws passed during his reign. He wanted to reform the feudal tax system, which is why he called the Estates-General. If all the nobles and wealthy clergy had been minimally taxed, there would have been no deficit.

The enemies of the king were determined his plans were not to succeed. They had been planning for years. As Marie-Antoinette wrote to her brother Leopold II in August 1790 about the society she had once thought to be innocuous: "Be well on your guard where you are with regard to all associations of Freemasons. You must already have been warned that it is by this means that all the monsters here count on attaining the same end in every country. Oh, God, preserve my fatherland and you from such misfortunes."

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Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:26 pm
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Louis-Charles wrote:
Mirabeau was not a baited revolutionist, he was more for a constitutional monarchy, being afraid of the revolution's drifts.
He thus tried to help and convince the royal family to accept the constitution so that the revolution stops...and he fell a little under the charm from the determination of Marie-Antoinette. he said after an interview with her: "Le Roi n'a qu'un seul homme, sa femme". :D


All you say is true.

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Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:27 pm
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that is incredible therese, i have even more respect for the man than i did. i thought much of him for his dignity and devotion to his people, even staying in versailles when he could have run but some of these laws really are quite radical for the times aren't they? i think even britain was behind so france wasn't some old fashioned 'ancien regime' backward country was it? what about the 'downtrodden put upon peasants'? i question this now

so the revolution was basically the result of spin doctors intent on their own gain? (very familiar sounding) well i'm glad the perpetrators (most of them) got their just desserts!


Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:18 pm
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Webster says that the fifteen year reign of Louis XVI was the MOST prosperous time France had ever known. Travelers to France, such as Edmund Burke, were impressed by the happy condition of the French peasants. The famines towards the end which were caused by weather conditions, made worse by the speculators who bought up all the grain and kept it from getting to the people. Louis XVI and his queen made every effort to relieve the hunger of the people, including selling all of their plate.

Louis would not leave because he knew that was what his enemies wanted so they could set up Orleans as king.

Most of the history we are taught is a myth.

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Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:25 pm
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Therese,
Merci pour la information! :D I didn't realize just how many reforms and laws were passed during Louis XVI's reign.


Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:58 pm
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Quote:
Webster says that the fifteen year reign of Louis XVI was the MOST prosperous time France had ever known. Travelers to France, such as Edmund Burke, were impressed by the happy condition of the French peasants. The famines towards the end which were caused by weather conditions, made worse by the speculators who bought up all the grain and kept it from getting to the people. Louis XVI and his queen made every effort to relieve the hunger of the people, including selling all of their plate.

Indeed... Lack of grain and lack of bread can also be provoked. Speculators worked very hard on it.

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Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:02 pm
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Pimprenelle wrote:
Quote:
Webster says that the fifteen year reign of Louis XVI was the MOST prosperous time France had ever known. Travelers to France, such as Edmund Burke, were impressed by the happy condition of the French peasants. The famines towards the end which were caused by weather conditions, made worse by the speculators who bought up all the grain and kept it from getting to the people. Louis XVI and his queen made every effort to relieve the hunger of the people, including selling all of their plate.

Indeed... Lack of grain and lack of bread can also be provoked. Speculators worked very hard on it.


Yes, they did!!

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Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:35 pm
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Arietta wrote:
Therese,
Merci pour la information! :D I didn't realize just how many reforms and laws were passed during Louis XVI's reign.


Thanks, Arietta! You did not know because you are not supposed to know. The truth about Louis XVI is not part of the political correctness under which we all live in thrall.

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Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:38 pm
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