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 Nasty Phampleteers 
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Post Nasty Phampleteers
Does anybody have any theories on why Marie Antoinette was targeted by the phampleteers and why it was sooo significant for Marie Antoinette to be represented as a bad mother and a evil queen???????

It amazes me that the phampleteers were allowed to get away with it and what did she actually do to justify such cruelty........ :? :?


Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:15 am
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Many people hated Marie-Antoinette because she was Austrian: thus she has undergoes lampoons against her origins ("l'Architigresse" for example), and her desires of freedom and intimacy with her friends in Trianon have creates false rumours about her sexuality and her leisures: lampoons were thus diffused.
Provence, Louis XVI's brother, also diffused lampoons, because Marie-Antoinette obstructed it, him who wished only one thing: the throne.
Marie-Antoinette disturbed also certain ministers, who had influence.
In short, the lampoons were born from false rumours, exaggerations and from invention, with an aim of dirtying the reputation of Marie-Antoinette but also the reputation of monarchy. And these lampoons were increasingly numerous after 1785 and the"Affaire du collier"... until the revolution.

When she was young queen, between 1774 and 1780, Marie-Antoinette was not concerned with these lampoons because they allowed her to laugh, and she did not consider the future consequences. But after 1785, she started to understand the capacity of the images and the rumours, and to worry about it. Therefore she tried to restore her integrates reputation ... but it was too late.

But all her life proves to us that Marie-Antoinette was an excellent Queen, a admirable woman, an admirable mother, as opposed to what the lampoons said. :D

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:48 am
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Pamphlets and stories illustrated by pics representing people as animal are not an invention of the revolution. Other French kings were victims of these in the previous centuries.

The difference is that, in Marie Antoinette's time, the throne was terribly in danger. Those who were interested in this attacked the weakest link of the monarchy, which was Marie Antoinette, the Austrian queen.

Two failures : she was an Austrian, a stranger and moreover the daughters of their old enemy, Austria. Furthermore, she was a woman.

So they attacked her for being an Austrian who wanted to destroy France and was only happy when she sucked French blood. They also wrote that she was as powerful as a man, far more powerful than her impotent husband, powerful enough to afford favorites.

Then, this old trick of caricaturing people as animals was used. It always works for it creates a distance by making the victim less human.

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:40 am
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The harpy depiction is a good example of that. In Greek mythology, somone or another was banished to an island with an abundance of food, except the Harpies would steal it from his hands just before he ate.

Ironic that over two hundred years later the pamphlets are still doing their work, now with the aid of the Internet. See http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5154/fran.htm for an example. A highlight from that page:

"Antoinette had many lovers outside her marriage. She was commonly called "the Austrian whore" for the countless men she entertained - from Arthur Dillon, the Duc de Lauzun, and Axel von Fersen, to the Baron de Besenval, the Prince de Ligne, and the Comte de Vaudreuil. "Antoinette even confessed herself that she led the life of 'a despicable prostitute': She spent the night before the coronation in 1775 on the Porte Neuve at Reims, an 'islet of love,' dressed as a Bacchante, copulating for three hours with a selected 'Hercules.' She learned new positions from the Comte d’Artois at the Trianon, and she experimented with her ladies of the household."

A Google search will turn up plenty more of that.

Image


Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:16 am
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Yes, you all are right. French could not forget that MA was from Austria. Besides they wanted to find someone guilty for the poverty. The right person for them was just Marie Antoinette who ,according to them, had influence on the king. In fact Ludvik XV was guilty because he spent lots of money for weapons, wars and his lovers. And Ludvik XVI had bad advisors (money for the war in America).

In fact pamphlets killed the queen. She ignored them and it was her big fault. Her opponents invented lots of stories just to create a sexual monster and madame deficit.
She wasn't saint - just a human being, and she wasn't bigger "sinner" than the others those times.
I am ready to believe she was romantically involved with Fersen and...maybe Poligniac (!?) . But it was her life and her choice.


Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:41 pm
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Yes, Torin... but, what could she do, should she not ignore those pamphlets ? In my view, France needed a scapegoat, and they took Marie Antoinette, the Austrian woman. She would have been scapegoat whatever she did, I think. They would attack anything in her behaviour.

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:04 pm
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Torin wrote:

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I am ready to believe she was romantically involved with Fersen and...maybe Poligniac (!?) .


Not me! :lol:
The lampoons concerning the "uterine fury" of Marie-Antoinette were only completely invented from phantasms. These lampoons were imagined because Marie-Antoinette liked to be alone with her friends in places prohibited with courting, like Trianon.

And in one of her letters, Marie-Antoinette says that she saw a lampoon announcing her relations in love with Polignac, and the fact that people can believe in such imaginary relations amuses her. Yes Marie-Antoinette had much humour and could take the things with recreation, because she could also have been in anger, but not she takes it with humour... I adore.

She clearly says in this letter that these rumours are false. :wink:
And of course I believe her :D

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:12 pm
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She wrote it to her mother. "For me, I was not spared, they very liberally give me both tastes, the one of women and of male lovers".

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:17 pm
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Ah good memory Pim, I referred to this passage indeed! :wink:

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:19 pm
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Marie-Antoinette was targeted by the pamphleteers because as a beautiful young queen she was an easy target for those who wanted political power for themselves.

There is no evidence that the queen took anyone to her bed but Louis XVI.

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:26 pm
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Quote:
There is no evidence that the queen took anyone to her bed but Louis XVI.


Yes I agree....All lets suppose that Marie-Antoinette was faithful to Louis XVI all her life... the lampoons are absolutely not credible. :D

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:32 pm
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Louis-Charles wrote:
Quote:
There is no evidence that the queen took anyone to her bed but Louis XVI.


Yes I agree....All lets suppose that Marie-Antoinette was faithful to Louis XVI all her life... the lampoons are absolutely not credible. :D


Unless we are very imaginative, we have no choice but to assume she was faithful, since no proof of infidelity exists. At any rate, she should be given the benefit of the doubt.

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:37 pm
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It is a strong argument/prove if she wrote the truth, Louis Charles. Anyway I think we will never get the real truth. Even if she had too much close relationship with Poligniac, I don't think she would confess herself guity to her mother. :wink:
I don't want to say the queen had or hadn't such relationship with Poligniac, because everything is possible in life. Personality of Marie Antoinette wasn't simple. And therefore so much fascinating. But yes, there is the highest possibility that it was just a friendship. For phampleeters each reason was good to exaggerate and describe the queen in the wrong light.

Yes Pim, there is still the same problem with rumours in gossip papers for famous people. Ignore it or to take some steps against them ? I know, it is difficult. But perhaps sometimes there is need to react when rumours pass the limit. What Marie Antoinette could do ? To forbid it officially ? I don't know. On the other hand people would have screamed about censorship and freedom.. One way or another I think she just didn't realize that rumours or public opinion could be so dangerous... so ignored it.

I have read many phamplets on MA and frankly speaking they were disgusting. I have never read so much spinning stories about one person. It is even difficult to believe them, if you have common sense.
Bye the way, the most stupid information I have read lately in press is that the queen wanted to poison the king. What an absurd ! Surely it was written by a journalist who doesn't care what he writes just to make an article more spicy without checking historical documents.


Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:38 pm
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Torin wrote :

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It is a strong argument/prove if she wrote the truth, Louis Charles. Anyway I think we will never get the real truth. Even if she had too much close relationship with Poligniac, I don't think she would confess herself guity to her mother.


Indeed, but the probability that she lied to her mother in this letter is very weak so much... that I do not believe in it. And the way in which Marie-Antoinette reacted to this lampoon shows that she did not have relations in love with Polignac. Because she reacted with humour, and she was not concerned with it... if she really had relations with Polignac, she would have been inevitably frightened, because her place of Queen would have been then compromised. :D

Quote:
Bye the way, the most stupid information I have read lately in press is that the queen wanted to poison the king. What an absurd

It is sure! Her who accompanied Louis XVI all her life...
Another which amuses me much by its silly thing is the lampoon which says that Marie-Antoinette had relations in love with LaFayette... her who hated the "Blondinet" as she called him!

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:57 pm
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Why would Antoinette have had to lie to her mother about her dear friend Gabrielle? I do not understand. The letters which I have read she is very eager to tell her mother about her wonderful friend. There was nothing to hide.

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Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:03 pm
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