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 Marie Antoinette's Rumor 
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Post Marie Antoinette's Rumor
As you are Tired of hearing about dear Antoine and the Swedish Count. Do you think there was a real physical relationship. Now i know we all here Regard The Queen with full respect as do I. Or could their relation ship be like that of Queen Elizabeth and Robert Dudley even though they were really good friends and rumors spread as far as to France that they were lovers she swore at he near death of smallpox that there was nothing unappropriate that had ever passed between them. Even if MA did have relationship with the Swedish boy wouldnt some one have said or seen something I say No for lack of evidence what do you think for I think the fersen affair is one of the biggest things that have disturbed Her Gracious Majesty's Reputation to This Day.

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Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:34 am
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At the time, Marie Antoinette was accused of having affairs with lots of men, but it was only until later that anyone started questioning her relationship with Fersen...or at least that is what I can remember from reading about the issue. Personally, I don't think it matters whether she did or not. It wasn't a huge issue at the time, so even if anything did happen, I don't think that particular relationship was detrimental to her.


Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:40 am
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To my mind Marie-Antoinette and Fersen were very good friend only :wink:
But Marie-Antoinette was very conclusive, and therefore she showed much her feelings, so...rumours said that they were lovers... but I do not believe in it... she was too faithful to Louis XVI. :D

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Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:02 am
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How true ! Marie Antoinette was supposed to have physical relationships with Coigny, Besenval, Vaudreuil, Artois, Ligne, Lauzun, Fersen, La Fayette, Barnave... did I forget anyone ? Ah... of course, also with Pequigny, Guéménée, Lamballe, Polignac, Raucourt...

So, I think nowadays people focuse on Fersen for one good reason. He was so handsome ! It would be so tragical and so romantic, you see... just like "Romeo and Juliette", or another "Titanic"... :roll:

Being more interested in historical accuracy than in love novels, all I can say is that there are absolutely no evidence that Fersen ever was Antoinette's lover... and even, no evidence that he ever was more cherrished than her other friends ! She had so many friends...

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Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:16 am
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There is a very good description of this relationship IMO in Nesta Webster's Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette Before the Revolution. There are several versions presented there. To me, it seems as though the Queen was attracted to Fersen and may have allowed this to show somewhat just by the fact that she chose to engage in friendship with him (and could not completely hide her attraction), but this may have given enemies more material to then make up a physical relationship. And, of course, everyone is interested in stories of love and romance! There are other courtiers, though, who approached M.A. innapropriately, whom she solidly turned away, and also her evidenced revulsion to du Barry. I think the evidences of her moral character very much outweighs the romantic notions of a physical relationship with Fersen. :wink:


Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:44 pm
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I agree with you madame Eliabeth

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Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:20 pm
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To reprise your very interesting comparison: Antoinette and Fersen were friends...just like Elizabeth I and Dudley were friends. In both cases, there is absolutely no evidence of any physical relationship.
Being an admirer of Elizabeth I as well as of Antoinette, I have observed that both queens were almost "accused" by posterity of having had affairs with men who were just good friends.
I believe that the reason for those "accusations" lies with the fact that many people cannot understand how a man and a woman can be friends. In many people's minds, any closeness between a man and a woman necessarily equates to being lovers. In fact, men and women can be 'just' friends and the relationships between Antoinette and Fersen or Elizabeth and Dudley demonstrate that.

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Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:56 am
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I'm in doubt. I know that in those days people tended to write in a very emotional way - but what Marie Antoinette wrote shortly after the flight to Varennes in a coded letter to Fersen, may be a indication that they were more than friends:

“I can only say that I love you, and I barely have the time for that… Let me know to whom I shall send news, for without that I cannot live. Goodbye, you the most loved and lovingly of all men. I embrace you with all my heart”.

And perhaps - when Louis wrote this in his last will - he was thinking about the relationship between his wife and the Swedish count:

“... I hope that she is convinced that I don’t blame her for anything even though she maybe blames herself.“

Of course I'm not sure at all. Louis might be referring to something else - but it is a possibility.
I don't doubt that she loved her husband, but I wouldn't think ill of her for a moment if she found her true love to be Fersen.

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Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:38 am
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You should really read Nesta Webster, dear... :?

This letter in code is not written by Marie Antoinette. So, who wrote this ? It is not the queen's handwriting.

Nesta Webster shows that it would be impossible that this letter would have been sent by Marie Antoinette, actually, for the lady writing gives important information about how to reach her and how to sent her mail. On the other hand, Marie Antoinette's incontestable letters to Fersen say that she is in deep worries for she has no news from him, and she does not know where to reach him.

So... we have a letter that is not with the scripture of the queen, and whose information is in contradiction with authentic further coresspondence.

But, you know... romantic people want so much that this chilvalresque love existed...

Now, Fersen's correspondence to his sister Sophie. The interpretation of this was made by Alma Söderjhem, who strongly believed that Marie Antoinette and Axel von Fersen were lovers in the full acception of the term.

So, she jumps on every detail that may suggest it. That's what she did with Fersen's letters to Sophie Piper. Fersen speaks with very intimate words about a poor woman who is so unhappy and whom he consoles... and so on... Mme Söderjhem immediately concluded this was the queen, for sure !

However, later, in the same letter, Fersen adds : "the queen TOO is very unhappy". And it is obvious that, when he actually talks about Marie Antoinette, he calls her "the queen". "My friend" refers thus to another lady.

But, once again... people want so much that this so romantic love story existed...

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Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:03 am
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We have discussed this topic on this forum several times before. Here are some articles published elsewhere on this site.


http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... art-1.html

http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... art-2.html

http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... art-3.html

There is not a scrap of evidence that the queen had anything but feelings of friendship for the Count. There are no letters in her handwriting to him except those that are of a diplomatic nature. At the time of Varennes, Fersen was involved in a hot and heavy romance with Eleonore Sullivan. He had a spiritual affection for the queen, but Eleonore was the lady who occupied his bed.

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Last edited by Therese on Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:35 pm
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Here is the thread in which we already have discussed this topic in detail.

http://www.marie-antoinette.org/forum/v ... .php?t=217

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Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:43 pm
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I shall head there now, Therese

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Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:49 am
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We all learn from each other!

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Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:38 pm
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Posts have been deleted from this thread to protect member privacy. Axel, Pim, Therese & Louis Charles if you want to discuss this further with me please send a PM or email - editor@marie-antoinette.org

This topic is now locked for discussion. As Therese points out above there is a thread open on this topic here:
http://www.marie-antoinette.org/forum/v ... .php?t=217

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